It might appear that I have been going to some pretty extreme lengths to belabor the obvious: we live in a world populated by material objects made of atoms. Atoms exist in particular places at particular times and move around according to laws. Collections of atoms are called systems and the positions of atoms within a system are called states. Correlations between states are called information.
All this might look like I'm trying to dodge some of the hard problems, but in fact it's the exact opposite. I'm trying to set the stage for talking about one of the hard problems, namely, where does information come from? How is it created? For this question to even make sense we need a precise definition of what we are talking about, of what information actually is, which is why all this prep work has been necessary.
But we need more than just that, because not all information seems to be created equal. There are some kinds of information whose creation appears straightforward. For example, a thermometer contains information about the temperature of its surroundings. But there is no great mystery there. It's obviously just a straightforward natural process, though it turns out that this process is not quite as easy to describe as you might first suspect. Still, there is no need to invoke anything beyond the simple lawful behavior of atoms (and few odds and ends like electrons and photons) to explain thermometers and light switches and cameras and even computers. Thermometers and light switches and cameras and computers are all just Atoms Doing Their Thing (ADTT).
But there are two kinds of systems in nature that appear to be qualitatively different: DNA and human brains. Both of these contain information (obviously) but the information contained in DNA and human brains seems at first glance to be of a qualitatively different character than that contained in thermometers and light switches and cameras. But note well that I had to leave computers off that list. It is not at all clear any more whether human brains are qualitatively different from computers, or exactly what distinguishes the behavior of brains and computers, at least in terms of the information they contain. Up until a few years ago this was still a philosophical problem. There were legitimate-sounding arguments that there were things brains could do that computers could not, but these have all be utterly destroyed by technological progress over the last few decades. It was once argued that computers could never beat humans at chess, or speak Chinese, or distinguish dogs from cats. Just in my lifetime all of these things have gone from cutting-edge research to borderline trivial. A computer that will utterly crush any human at chess today costs a few hundred dollars and fits comfortably in the palm of your hand.
But, of course, computers would not exist without human brains to build them. Large Language Models would not work without a corpus of text generated by human brains to train on. And brains would not exist without DNA. So there still seems to be something special about DNA and brains, some quality that distinguishes them from thermometers and light switches and cameras.
What is this quality, where does it reside, and where does it originate? Where exactly does the hypothesis that everything we observe can be accounted for by Atoms Doing Their Thing fail?
One possibility is the capacity of the human brain for invention, for creating new information. LLMs can mimic the input-output behavior of brains, but only if they are first trained on a vast corpus of information that was produced by brains. All that information had to originate somewhere. The only possible source of that information, it would seem, is human brains, and specifically, some quality that brains have that computers lack for creativity and originality, for creating new and interesting information. What else could it possibly be?
Notice that I quietly snuck a new concept in there: new and interesting information. Creating information, that is, correlations between states of systems, is, as noted earlier, not hard. Even creating new information is not hard: just flip a coin and look at it. The information about which side landed up is new. It didn't exist before the coin landed. (Note that this might not actually be true, but that's a deep, deep rabbit hole, one which we will explore later. But for now let's just assume that it is not possible to predict the result of a coin flip, and so it really does produce new information.) But this information is obviously completely different than the kind of newness in an original novel or poem or invention. So it is not just newness that matters, it is something else, and that "something else" is what I call being interesting.
What exactly makes new information interesting? That question is even harder to answer than what makes something a chair, but it doesn't really matter. What matters is that humans mostly agree on what "interesting" means in this context, just like they mostly agree on what a chair is, and so this agreement is itself an observation that we need to explain. And eventually we will, but not just yet.
For now, let's just accept that humans seem to be able to recognize and (mostly) agree on some distinction between interesting and uninteresting information in much the same way that they can recognize and (mostly) agree on some distinction between chairs and non-chairs. This turns out to have surprisingly far-reaching and profound implications.
Consider someone named Audrey who writes an original poem or essay or novel, and a second person named Paul who makes a copy of Audrey's work and puts his own name on it. We call Audrey an Author and Paul a Plagiarist because Audrey has created new, interesting information and Paul hasn't.
But plagiarism is not limited to copying original work like poems and essays and novels. Consider a journalist (let's call her Jane) who writes news stories. Copying one of Jane's stories would also be considered plagiarism despite the fact that news stories are not original in the same sense that poems and essays and novels are. Indeed, the whole point of journalism is the exact opposite. The value of journalism is that the information it contains reflects objective facts and are not an invention of the author. So why is journalism considered valuable work? Why do news stories have by-lines? Why is copying a new story and re-publishing it under your own name considered plagiarism? Aren't news stories just facts? How can you claim ownership over a fact?
The answer is that yes, news stories are "just facts", but they are a very particular kind of fact. They are interesting facts. They are relevant facts. The value in journalism is not in the generation of the information -- that is done by current events. The value in journalism is in the filtering, the separation of the wheat from the chaff, the relevant events from the irrelevant details, the interesting from the uninteresting.
This idea of "filtering out" relevant and interesting things from irrelevant and uninteresting things will turn out to be absolutely crucial to our understanding of the world. It will turn out that everything can be understood in these terms, even the very existence of atoms, though it will be a long, long time before we get there. For now, I just want to point out that even the creation of original work like poems and novels and blog posts can be explained not as a phenomenon in its own right, separate from the kind of filtering that goes on in journalism, but as an instance of the exact same process.
I can tell you from personal experience that the contents of this blog did not spring fully formed into my mind. What you are reading now is the result of a filtering process. Before I write a single word, I have to do a lot of reading. I don't have the mental capacity to remember everything I read, so I have to filter out the relevant and interesting bits from the irrelevant and uninteresting bits. Then I start to kick around ideas for what to write about, and the same thing happens. Ideas pop into my head and I mentally sift through them thinking, "Nope, that's crap. Nope, that's crap. Nope, nope, nope... well, hmm, maybe..."
Then I write a draft, read it over, decide it's crap, throw it out, and write something different. I usually end up throwing out much more text than I actually publish. Right now, as I write these very words, there is a pile of text in this file that I wrote earlier but decided was crap after reading it over. I'm keeping it around just in case there turns out to be something salvageable in it, but most likely all of it is just going to get thrown out, never to been seen by any human eyes other than my own because, well, it's crap. The text I'm planning to discard is, as I write this, about twice as long as the text I'm currently planning to keep and publish, and God only knows how many bad ideas flitted through my head that never even made it to the keyboard at all.
And then, finally, after all that, after the reading and the writing and the rewriting and the re-rewriting, after at long last I click on the "publish" button, there is yet another filtering process that is performed by my audience (such as it is) where they -- you -- read what I wrote, decide if it has merit, and maybe, if I'm lucky, leave a comment, or recommend to someone else that they might want to read what I've written. Maybe, some day, if I am very, very lucky, my words might get the attention of an agent or a publisher, whose entire job is to filter out relevant and interesting information from the torrent being constantly generated by aspiring writers all over the world, the vast majority of whom are doomed to never have anything enter their brains that gets past anyone else's filter and thus sink into quiet obscurity in the good company of countless prior generations of aspiring authors.
In other words, what we think of as originality is actually just the result of a lot of sifting through crap to find the good stuff. Humans discover the good stuff, they recognize the good stuff, but they don't actually produce it. Originality comes not from being the first to generate a new idea, but being the first to recognize it and promulgate it. The actual generation of new ideas isn't the hard part. The hard part is the filtering, recognizing the good ideas.
Notice how much this explains. It explains why journalism is considered valuable work despite the fact that originality is antithetical to good journalism. It explains why editing is considered valuable work. It explains why people can make a living as literary agents and script readers. It explains why AIs can be so good at writing really bad prose. It explains why good ideas and good books and good blog posts are rare and can't just be generated on demand.
Now, this does not entirely eviscerate the notion that human brains are special, but it does take us down a peg. The thing that makes us special is no longer our ability to come up with new ideas, but simply to recognize good ideas, which seems not quite as wonderful and special and magical as coming up with them in the first place. But it still demands an explanation of how the filtering works, and why humans seem to be so much better at it than other animals. (Whether we will actually turn out to be better at it than computers remains to be seen.)
As a sneak preview, the answer to this question will turn out to be that the laws of physics have built in to them a kind of "ur-filter", the mother of all filters, which ends up filtering out our ability to filter out interesting information. Actually, there are two of these ur-filters. One of them is Darwinian natural selection, which is a filter for the ability of a system to make a copy of itself. And the second is something called quantum entanglement, which is a filter for the phenomenon of information itself. Entanglement is what produces correlations between systems. I have to emphasize that I do not expect you to believe any of this yet. To say that there are a lot of details still to fill in would be a colossal understatement. But sometimes it can help to follow the path if you know ahead of time where it is leading, even if the end is still very far off in the distance.
Thursday, June 04, 2026
Seeking God in Science part 9: Creating Information
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Some of these points seem so simple and obvious, but I have never actually considered them before. I'm starting to see why they are important. It's a fascinating read. Each new installment is like opening up a Christmas present.
ReplyDeleteNow that you mention it, If Doubleday/Penguin Random House would publish Frank Tipler's "Physics of Immortality", it seems to me they should be doubly interested to have you write something for them. Though Tipler's books were kinda interesting, they were also terrible and there was really no point to any of them.
> Each new installment is like opening up a Christmas present.
DeleteWow, thank you! That is one of the nicest things anyone has ever said to me, and it really means a lot coming from a YEC.
> If Doubleday/Penguin Random House would publish Frank Tipler's "Physics of Immortality", it seems to me they should be doubly interested to have you write something for them.
Well, I hope so, but the reality is that getting a book published involves a lot more than just writing a good book. In fact, writing a good book is neither necessary nor sufficient. The thing that matters is persuading the publisher that your book will *sell*. Nowadays that turns a lot more on how famous you are than it does on the quality of your work.
So you haven't described what information is -- is it atoms, energy, something else?
ReplyDeleteCorrelations and "information" are not features the physical world possesses on its own. They are abstract patterns that human minds impose when we observe, model, and describe physical systems. The systems themselves are just particles and fields interacting according to physical laws. They don’t contain or traffic in "information" or "correlations" until a mind abstracts those regularities out of the raw goings-on.
> So you haven't described what information is
DeleteYes, I have: it is correlations among states of systems.
> is it atoms, energy, something else?
Something else: correlations among states of systems.
> Correlations and "information" are not features the physical world possesses on its own.
Yes, they are. States are features that the physical world possesses, and so correlations among those states are features that the physical world possesses.
> They are abstract patterns that human minds impose when we observe, model, and describe physical systems.
Yes, they are that too, because human minds are states of humans brains. (We'll get to that.)
> The systems themselves are just particles and fields interacting according to physical laws. They don’t contain or traffic in "information" or "correlations" until a mind abstracts those regularities out of the raw goings-on.
Yes, they do. If all human minds suddenly disappeared from the face of the earth, thermometers would still contain information about the temperature of their surroundings.
@Ron:
ReplyDelete>If all human minds suddenly disappeared from the face of the earth, thermometers would still contain information about the temperature of their surroundings.
Consider we have a thermometer in a human-mind-free world. If that thermometer contains information, where is it? What is the mass of that information? Can that information cause anything to happen?
Or put another way: if we subtracted all of the information from that thermometer, would it change anything about it?
"Information" is a set of models that serve as course-grained, high-level abstractions. They compress complexity by modeling relevant degrees of freedom, correlations, or functional mappings. These idealized models enable prediction and control when full microscopic simulation is impossible.
Such abstractions, however, do not alter the underlying physics -- they provide epistemic tools. Humans create an interpretive framework, but the patterns and constraints they describe are objective features of the system's state space and dynamics. For example, a crystal's atomic lattice, or the expansion of mercury inside a glass tube, exhibit reproducible behaviors independent of description.
Physical systems consist of concrete configurations of matter and energy governed by fundamental physical processes. These evolve deterministically or probabilistically according to initial conditions and interactions, without intrinsic need or reference to "information."
> Consider we have a thermometer in a human-mind-free world. If that thermometer contains information, where is it?
DeleteInformation doesn't have a location. The physical systems that contain information have locations, but the information itself, being merely correlations among states, doesn't have a location. As a matter of convention we can say that information is co-located with the physical system that contains it (e.g. this file is on that hard drive) but things can get considerably more complicated than that (e.g. a RAID array).
> What is the mass of that information?
Information is correlations among states. Correlations don't have mass (obviously).
> Can that information cause anything to happen?
Yes. Of course. If things are correlated, the results can be different than if they are not. Why would you doubt this?
> Or put another way: if we subtracted all of the information from that thermometer, would it change anything about it?
What does it mean to "subtract information" from a thermometer?
> "Information" is a set of models that serve as course-grained, high-level abstractions. They compress complexity by modeling relevant degrees of freedom, correlations, or functional mappings. These idealized models enable prediction and control when full microscopic simulation is impossible.
That is sheer nonsense. You haven't defined what you mean by "model" or "abstraction" or "compress" or "complexity" or "relevant" or "degrees of freedom" or "functional mappings". Even your use of "correlations" is non-sensical because you haven't said what is being correlated.
> Such abstractions, however, do not alter the underlying physics -- they provide epistemic tools. Humans create an interpretive framework, but the patterns and constraints they describe are objective features of the system's state space and dynamics. For example, a crystal's atomic lattice, or the expansion of mercury inside a glass tube, exhibit reproducible behaviors independent of description.
So? What does any of that have to do with the scientific method? What Problem are you addressing? What observations does this help to explain?
> Physical systems consist of concrete configurations of matter and energy governed by fundamental physical processes. These evolve deterministically or probabilistically according to initial conditions and interactions, without intrinsic need or reference to "information."
You have lost the plot. The Problem being addressed is that there appears to be something out there in objective reality that humans call "information". This is analogous to the Problem that there seems to be something out there in objective reality that humans call "chairs". Some Christians think that in order to account for our observations of chairs we need to go beyond the material and posit the existence of some extra-physical Platonic "chairness". But we don't. All of our observations about chairs can be explained purely in terms of physical arrangements of atoms. It's the same with information. All of our observations about what humans talk about when they talk about information can be explained as correlations between states. If you want to dispute this, you have to provide a counter-example, an *observation* that cannot be explained this way.
>> Can that information cause anything to happen?
ReplyDelete>Yes. Of course. If things are correlated, the results can be different than if they are not. Why would you doubt this?
For our single thermometer in the world without humans, give me an example of what the information in that thermometer can cause to itself or its environment.
>> Or put another way: if we subtracted all of the information from that thermometer, would it change anything about it?
>What does it mean to "subtract information" from a thermometer?
You said the thermometer contained information. What if it didn't? How would that change the thermometer itself or its environment?
>> "Information" is a set of models that serve as course-grained, high-level abstractions. They compress complexity by modeling relevant degrees of freedom, correlations, or functional mappings. These idealized models enable prediction and control when full microscopic simulation is impossible.
>That is sheer nonsense. You haven't defined what you mean by "model" or "abstraction" or "compress" or "complexity" or "relevant" or "degrees of freedom" or "functional mappings". Even your use of "correlations" is non-sensical because you haven't said what is being correlated.
Well, if you can't understand it because of your sudden amnesia over common terms of the art in mathematics and the sciences, how can you judge it as nonsense? Once your memory comes back, you'll find my comment highly insightful.
Also you spiked the universe's Irony Meter by demanding definitions after your post on Chairs.
>> Physical systems consist of concrete configurations of matter and energy governed by fundamental physical processes. These evolve deterministically or probabilistically according to initial conditions and interactions, without intrinsic need or reference to "information."
>You have lost the plot. The Problem being addressed is that there appears to be something out there in objective reality that humans call "information".
Humans create a representation of objective reality that has "information". Which is fine, humans do that a lot (create representations).
But you claim "information" exists even without humans.
>This is analogous to the Problem that there seems to be something out there in objective reality that humans call "chairs". Some Christians think that in order to account for our observations of chairs we need to go beyond the material and posit the existence of some extra-physical Platonic "chairness".
I don't know why you mention Christians in this context. First, Plato was a pagan. Second, there are a lot of Christian anti-realists. While "some" (nice qualifier you used) Christians would be realists, I would posit that "most" don't think about it at all.
>But we don't. All of our observations about chairs can be explained purely in terms of physical arrangements of atoms. It's the same with information. All of our observations about what humans talk about when they talk about information can be explained as correlations between states.
So ... "information" is like "chairness" -- and "chairness" we don't need? So then we don't need information, either? Now you're confusing me.
>If you want to dispute this, you have to provide a counter-example, an *observation* that cannot be explained this way.
I think you need to provide an explanation of why adding "information" to a physical system is needed to explain that physical system at all. Can't the physical system just be explained via our physical laws -- quantum mechanics, gravity, electromagnetism? Why postulate a massless, spaceless extra ingredient called "information"?
Delete> For our single thermometer in the world without humans, give me an example of what the information in that thermometer can cause to itself or its environment.
This depends on what you mean by the word "thermometer". You need to go back and review Part 2 of this series.
"Thermometer" generally refers to an artifact, i.e. a thing made by humans. That kind of thermometer in a world without humans is a counterfactual, so the example you seek requires either a suspension of disbelief or a change in the definition of "thermometer". For example, does a snowflake count as a thermometer? It certainly contains information about the temperature of its environment, specifically, the existence of a snowflake indicates that the temperature of its environment is below freezing. So I could tell you a story of a thermostat that continues to operate after the apocalypse, or a snowflake that melts and triggers an avalanche, or something like that.
> You said the thermometer contained information. What if it didn't?
That is another counterfactual.
"Containing information" is a metaphor. Saying that a system X "contains information" is just another way of saying that X is in a state that is correlated with some other state. Those words mean exactly the same thing. Containing information is completely different from containing something material, like a box containing the things inside it. The only difference between (say) a hard drive that "contains" a file and one that doesn't is its state.
>> That is sheer nonsense. You haven't defined what you mean by "model" or "abstraction" or "compress" or "complexity" or "relevant" or "degrees of freedom" or "functional mappings". Even your use of "correlations" is non-sensical because you haven't said what is being correlated.
> Well, if you can't understand it because of your sudden amnesia over common terms of the art in mathematics and the sciences, how can you judge it as nonsense? Once your memory comes back, you'll find my comment highly insightful.
Dial back the snark or I will stop publishing your comments.
If you say that you are using terms of art, then all of your claims are just flat-out wrong. For example: ""Information" is a set of models that serve as course-grained, high-level abstractions." Um, no, it isn't. This is Christian apologist rhetoric designed to obfuscate and mislead, and it would get you laughed out of the room in any technical setting.
> Also you spiked the universe's Irony Meter by demanding definitions after your post on Chairs.
Second warning: dial back the snark.
I have no idea what you mean. The *whole point* of the "chair" example was to show that some words, even ones where everyone thinks they know what they mean, don't actually have crisp definitions. That is exactly why I demand definitions from you, because when you try to provide them you will realize that some of the words you are using don't have crisp definitions even though you think they do.
> Humans create a representation of objective reality that has "information". Which is fine, humans do that a lot (create representations).
I would phrase this as: human brains contain information. It does not follow that human brains are the only things that contain information. Where this is all leading is that there is nothing special about human brains. There is no distinction between the information contained in a human brain or the information contained in a chimpanzee brain or an elephant brain or a hard drive or a book or DNA or even a thermometer. The only difference is that brains typically contain a lot *more* information than thermometers.
> But you claim "information" exists even without humans.
DeleteYes. Exactly. And the easiest way to see that is to observe that animal brains contain information too. So it's not *human* brains that are (potentially) special, it's brains in general. But books can also contain information, and books don't have brains. But books are *made* by (things with) brains so maybe brains are still necessary. Except that ice cores and fossils and sedimentary layers also contain information, and those form without any brains at all.
>> This is analogous to the Problem that there seems to be something out there in objective reality that humans call "chairs". Some Christians think that in order to account for our observations of chairs we need to go beyond the material and posit the existence of some extra-physical Platonic "chairness".
> I don't know why you mention Christians in this context. First, Plato was a pagan.
Because I've heard more than one Christian apologist argue that Platonic ideals necessarily exist and that these are evidence for God.
> Second, there are a lot of Christian anti-realists. While "some" (nice qualifier you used) Christians would be realists, I would posit that "most" don't think about it at all.
I don't know what to tell you. I first learned about all this from Matt Slick. Maybe you should ask him.
>> But we don't. All of our observations about chairs can be explained purely in terms of physical arrangements of atoms. It's the same with information. All of our observations about what humans talk about when they talk about information can be explained as correlations between states.
> So ... "information" is like "chairness" -- and "chairness" we don't need? So then we don't need information, either? Now you're confusing me.
We don't need "chariness" but we do need "chair" because "chair" is necessary to explain the observation that people talk about chairs and talk about sitting in chairs. We don't need "chairness" to explain this. All this talk of chairs can be understood in terms of the arrangements of atoms, i.e. in terms of systems and states.
We need *something* to explain the observation that people talk about information, that they have intuitions about it. But, just as with chairs, it turns out we can explain this without having to add anything to our ontology. Information, just like chairs, can be understood in terms of systems and states.
>> If you want to dispute this, you have to provide a counter-example, an *observation* that cannot be explained this way.
> I think you need to provide an explanation of why adding "information" to a physical system is needed to explain that physical system at all. Can't the physical system just be explained via our physical laws -- quantum mechanics, gravity, electromagnetism?
Yes. Exactly.
> Why postulate a massless, spaceless extra ingredient called "information"?
It's not an "extra ingredient". It's the same old ingredients. The only new thing is this idea of "correlation", but that is not an addition to the *ontology*, it's just a mathematical definition.
>"Thermometer" generally refers to an artifact, i.e. a thing made by humans. That kind of thermometer in a world without humans is a counterfactual, so the example you seek requires either a suspension of disbelief or a change in the definition of "thermometer".
ReplyDeleteYou're the one who came up with the thermometer scenario. Let's review:
> If all human minds suddenly disappeared from the face of the earth, thermometers would still contain information about the temperature of their surroundings.
So what did you mean by it?
>So I could tell you a story of a thermostat that continues to operate after the apocalypse, or a snowflake that melts and triggers an avalanche, or something like that.
There you go - one way we could have thermometers on an earth without humans is if all of the humans died after building the thermometers.
So give me an example of how the information contained within a thermometer can cause anything to happen after an apocalypse. Note in your statement above you said it "would still contain information." Which you have said is without mass and has no defined location. My final question is probing whether the information contained within the thermometer has any causal power.
You previously responded that yes it did:
>Yes. Of course. If things are correlated, the results can be different than if they are not. Why would you doubt this?
I would like an example. As I have doubts that it has any causal power.
>> You said the thermometer contained information. What if it didn't?
>That is another counterfactual.
Then approach it this way: I claim the thermometer contains no information. Provide me with evidence that it does.
But I think we're getting somewhere:
>> But you claim "information" exists even without humans.
>Yes. Exactly.
... which would seem to be saying that "information" must exist in the objective, physical world ...
>> Can't the physical system just be explained via our physical laws -- quantum mechanics, gravity, electromagnetism?
>Yes. Exactly.
... which would seem to say that "information" doesn't exist in the physical world ...
>> Why postulate a massless, spaceless extra ingredient called "information"?
>It's not an "extra ingredient". It's the same old ingredients. The only new thing is this idea of "correlation", but that is not an addition to the *ontology*, it's just a mathematical definition.
... which would seem to say that "information" doesn't exist in the physical world ... and "information" is just ideas in human brains. Eliminate all humans, and you would eliminate all of the "information" ideas in them.
But then we have a contradiction: your claim that "information" exists even without human brains.
I'm really not trying to trick you, or trap you in any way. I've been interested in the ontological status of "information" and perhaps you have some insight into it. So I just want to know what you mean by "information" -- you often write about it like it was a caloric substance that moves around. Is that just a convenient metaphorical shorthand, or does "information" have some sort of existence in the physical world?
I’m genuinely trying to understand the ontological status you assign to information. Is it purely a descriptive or mathematical convenience with no deeper reality, or does it refer to something that exists in the world independently of how we talk about it?
Thanks.
Delete> I’m genuinely trying to understand the ontological status you assign to information.
That's hard for me to believe. You have been trolling my blog for years. But OK, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for now.
The TL;DR answer to this question is that information is in its own ontological category, separate from material objects.
> Is it purely a descriptive or mathematical convenience with no deeper reality, or does it refer to something that exists in the world independently of how we talk about it?
This question is chock-full of unwarranted assumptions. It assumes that a "mathematical convenience" and "deeper reality" are mutually exclusive things. It assumes that "existence in the world" is a binary attribute, and that it is independent of how we talk about things. Neither of these is necessarily true. Is a broken chair a chair? Is Pluto a planet?
What is really going on out there in the world is that atoms move around and arrange themselves in certain configurations, and then we humans attach labels like "chair" and "planet" to some of those configurations. When we attach those labels, that act of labelling doesn't change the configuration that the label refers to in any way.
> So give me an example of how the information contained within a thermometer can cause anything to happen after an apocalypse.
See, this is why I have a hard time believing that you really want to understand this stuff. The fact that you would ask this indicates that you have not thought about it *at all* because it's really easy to contrive a scenario. A thermostat is a device that causes things to happen depending on the information in a thermometer (which is part of the thermostat) and thermostats work whether or not there are humans around. That's the whole point of a thermostat.
> Then approach it this way: I claim the thermometer contains no information. Provide me with evidence that it does.
Again, it is hard for me to believe that you are really advancing this argument in good faith. Do you really deny that a thermometer contains information about (the temperature of) its environment? What do you think the word "thermometer" *means*???
> "information" is just ideas in human brains.
No. Information is correlations among states. Ideas in brains are examples of information, but they are not the only examples.
> Eliminate all humans, and you would eliminate all of the "information" ideas in them.
Your thinking is so muddled I don't even know where to begin. Yes, if you eliminated all humans you would eliminate all human brains and so you would eliminate all the information contained in human brains (obviously). But you would not eliminate all the information contained in animal brains and other physical systems.
> I'm really not trying to trick you, or trap you in any way.
Again, I don't believe you, because:
> I just want to know what you mean by "information"
That is clearly untrue because I've already told you again and again: information is correlations among states of physical systems. Obviously you want something more than that or we would not be having this conversation.
> you often write about it like it was a caloric substance that moves around. Is that just a convenient metaphorical shorthand, or does "information" have some sort of existence in the physical world? I’m genuinely trying to understand the ontological status you assign to information. Is it purely a descriptive or mathematical convenience with no deeper reality, or does it refer to something that exists in the world independently of how we talk about it?
Heat is actually a very good analogy. We can talk about heat "moving from place to place" even though heat is not a substance, it is just a kind of motion. Likewise we can talk about information moving from place to place even though information is not a substance.
>You have been trolling my blog for years.
ReplyDeleteActually, I haven't. Try to wrap your head around that.
>What is really going on out there in the world is that atoms move around and arrange themselves in certain configurations, and then we humans attach labels like "chair" and "planet" to some of those configurations. When we attach those labels, that act of labelling doesn't change the configuration that the label refers to in any way.
Which appears to be saying that "information" is just a human idea.
>> So give me an example of how the information contained within a thermometer can cause anything to happen after an apocalypse.
>See, this is why I have a hard time believing that you really want to understand this stuff. The fact that you would ask this indicates that you have not thought about it *at all* because it's really easy to contrive a scenario. A thermostat is a device that causes things to happen depending on the information in a thermometer (which is part of the thermostat) and thermostats work whether or not there are humans around. That's the whole point of a thermostat.
You've changed from "thermometer" to "thermostat". Ok, let's go with that.
Here is a description of a mechanical thermostat that uses a bimetallic coil to regulate temperature: Ambient air consists of a large population of molecules whose velocities follow the Maxwell-Boltzmann distribution. The average translational kinetic energy per molecule stands in direct proportion to the absolute temperature. Molecules impinge repeatedly upon the outer surface of the coiled bimetallic strip, transferring both linear momentum and kinetic energy to the atoms that form the strip’s two bonded metallic layers.
Each layer is a crystalline lattice of atoms whose mutual separations are maintained by electromagnetic interactions between nuclei and their surrounding electron clouds. When kinetic energy is absorbed from the colliding air molecules, the atoms increase the amplitude of their thermal vibrations about lattice sites. The interatomic potential energy surface is anharmonic; therefore the time-averaged distance between neighboring atoms grows with rising vibrational energy. The two metals possess different atomic numbers, electron configurations, and equilibrium lattice spacings, so they undergo unequal expansions under identical thermal excitation. The mismatch in elongation produces shear strain across the bonded interface. In the coiled geometry this strain appears as a torque that rotates the free end of the coil through an angle determined by the integrated thermal history of the lattice.
An electrical contact fixed to the moving end of the coil is carried along by the rotation. When the contact meets the opposing stationary terminal, a metallic junction of low resistance is formed. With a voltage applied across the circuit, conduction electrons flow through the junction and along the connecting wires, producing a macroscopic electric current. This current may energize the winding of a relay solenoid. The current in the solenoid creates a magnetic field whose Lorentz force displaces a ferromagnetic armature, thereby closing a higher-capacity switch. Closure of the power circuit then activates the heating or cooling apparatus—for instance by passing current through resistive elements, where electron scattering dissipates energy as lattice vibrations, or by mechanically opening a gas valve through linkage motion.
A further rise in air temperature increases the coil’s angular displacement in the opposite direction, separating the contacts and interrupting the current. All subsequent stages of equipment operation likewise reduce to chains of mechanical contact forces, momentum exchange, and electromagnetic interactions among charged particles and fields.
The action of the thermostat is therefore explained by the local action of Newtonian mechanics, statistical mechanics of molecular assemblies, and classical electromagnetism operating at the scale of atoms and electrons.
No "information" required.
>> Then approach it this way: I claim the thermometer contains no information. Provide me with evidence that it does.
ReplyDelete>Again, it is hard for me to believe that you are really advancing this argument in good faith. Do you really deny that a thermometer contains information about (the temperature of) its environment? What do you think the word "thermometer" *means*???
Again, you seem to think it is trivial to know this, yet you refuse to explain it after repeated requests.
If it is so trivial, why is there no agreement on it? There is this PBS show, Closer to Truth, whose host went to the FQxi conference on the Physics of Information (2014) and asked all of these scientists "What is information?," and every one of them gave a different answer, if they answered it at all. At 9:35 in the video, the host asks, "Here is the cruxe of the issue: is information only an analytical tool and helpful metaphor, or does information lead to or become the ultimate source of everything"? Which is similar to the question I've been asking you. He has even more videos where he asks the same question (see the interview with Peter Tse for a particularly interesting take on it) -- but still everyone gives a different answer.
So it doesn't appear trivial to me. If conferences are being held among some of the top scientists in the world, and none of them agree with each other, it seems like it's an open question!
Scott Aaronson has this very long blog post on Is "information is physical" contentful?" about what information is; he makes an argument it is physical using quantum mechanics, general relativity, and black holes. This is ... difficult to follow. Although the first comment in the blog by Sean Carroll is more helpful, comparing information to energy (an extrinsic parameter) -- although that contradicts Aaronson, as under Carroll, it's just a useful model or metaphor.
Then there is the Thorne-Hawking-Preskill bet regarding the "black hole information paradox". Which appears to say that information can fall into black hole and the question is whether it comes out again. Which appears to say information has some sort of reality.
Then there's prior you, who has argued that the only stuff that exists is the standard model, quantum mechanics, electromagnetic fields, gravity, and I suppose the laws of nature themselves. Information is not in that set.
My current thinking is that information is just a human idea we use to help simplify the description of complicated physical systems. Which would mean information does not exist in the physical world, only in human brains as ideas. Your definition of information as "correlation among states of phyiscal systems" only reinforces this view, as "correlation" is another human idea which uses mathematics (another human idea). So "information" is just a convenient method to describe complicated physical systems whose description would be tediously long without it, and the model those physical systems so we can make predictions about them.
@Publius:
ReplyDelete>> You have been trolling my blog for years.
> Actually, I haven't.
Yes, you have. You're doing it right now:
> Try to wrap your head around that.
I really should call that your third strike, but you do raise a few valid points so I'm going to let it slide this time.
> "information" is just a human idea.
That depends on what you mean by "just". It is "just" a human idea to the exact same extent that the word "chair" is "just" a human idea. In order to decide what is and is not a chair you need humans because they are the ultimate arbiters. But that doesn't mean that chairs -- the referents of the word "chair" -- are not physically real. Chairs are physical objects, so if you accept the Objective Reality Hypothesis, then those objects exist independent of humans.
> You've changed from "thermometer" to "thermostat".
Yes, because in order to give you an example of a thermometer having a causal effect, I have to connect that thermometer to some other physical system somehow. A thermostat is a ready-made example of a thermometer connected in such a way. The word "thermostat" saves me a lot of typing.
But you have apparently missed that point:
> Here is a description of a mechanical thermostat
What you wrote after that, which I am eliding, is exactly the "lot of typing" that using the word "thermostat" was designed to avoid, and actually writing it out in all of its gory details is an example of you trolling. The mechanical details of the thermostat don't matter, and serve only to obscure the point: a thermostat is a mechanical device that answers your challenge of providing an example of how "the information contained within a thermometer can cause [something] to happen."
> No "information" required.
Yes, that's true. Information is not *required*. You didn't have to type out the gory details of how a thermostat works to make that point.
Yes, it is possible to provide a complete description of the behavior of the world without referring to information, just as it is possible to provide a complete description of the behavior of the world without referring to chairs -- with one important exception: people talk about chairs, and people talk about information, and when they do they seem to be able to have coherent conversations about both of those things. That is an observation that needs to be explained, and it is the *only* observation that *requires* mentioning either chairs or information. In all other cases, both of those concepts are optional. But choosing to use them is going to make things an awful lot easier to understand down the road.
@Publius (part 2 of 2):
ReplyDelete> If it is so trivial, why is there no agreement on it?
I never said it was trivial. It is far from trivial. But this series is not intended to advance the boundaries of human knowledge, it is intended to explain difficult concepts to a lay audience who has been bamboozled by the likes of you, people who intentionally obfuscate and confuse.
There is no agreement about "information" for the same reason that there is no agreement about "chairs": there is more than one possible definition of the word "information" that accounts for all observations. I have chosen one definition for the purpose of exposition, a definition that a layman can understand, and one that doesn't require me to start writing mathematical equations. (One of the constraints I've imposed on myself is to explain this stuff with as little math as possible.) The fact that other definitions are possible is irrelevant, and so pointing out that other definitions are possible is trolling.
> Scott Aaronson has this very long blog post on Is "information is physical" contentful?" about what information is; he makes an argument it is physical using quantum mechanics, general relativity, and black holes. This is ... difficult to follow.
Indeed, and bringing it up is trolling. I have not yet gotten to quantum mechanics, general relativity, and black holes. I've barely even scratched the surface of classical mechanics.
> Then there's prior you, who has argued that the only stuff that exists is the standard model, quantum mechanics, electromagnetic fields, gravity, and I suppose the laws of nature themselves. Information is not in that set.
No, I have never said that this is all that *exists*. What I have said is that the Standard Model is sufficient to account for all physical phenomena in our solar system. Note that this does not refer to "existence" at all.
You don't actually read what I write. You don't respond to what I write, you respond to imagined versions of what I write. That is known as the straw-man fallacy, and when you do it as often as you do it becomes trolling.
> My current thinking is that information is just a human idea we use to help simplify the description of complicated physical systems.
The *word* "information" is a human idea that we use to help simplify the description of complicated physical systems, just like the word "chair" is a human idea that we use to help simplify the description of complicated physical systems. But you do these ideas an injustice by dismissing them as trivial with the word "just". Inventing a word that helps simplify the description of complicated physical systems is an incredibly powerful act, one of the most impressive things that human brains do.
> Which would mean information does not exist in the physical world, only in human brains as ideas.
Information exists in the physical world to the same extent that heat exists. Or baseball games. Or birthdays. Or democracy. Or mornings. Or Mondays. Or any of the myriad other words I could list that refer to things that are in some sense real but are not made of atoms.
> Your definition of information as "correlation among states of phyiscal systems" only reinforces this view, as "correlation" is another human idea which uses mathematics (another human idea). So "information" is just a convenient method to describe complicated physical systems whose description would be tediously long without it, and the model those physical systems so we can make predictions about them.
Yes, this is mostly right. Your only mistake is trivializing the power of the concept of information as "just" another human idea. It's not "just" another human idea, it is one of the most powerful ideas humans have ever come up with. Information is indeed the stuff that ideas themselves are made of.