Thursday, September 10, 2026

Seeking God in Science, part 11: Time (part 1 of 2)

It's time to talk about time.

Time, like consciousness, is another one of those things that is at once intimately familiar and deeply mysterious.  What is time?  What is it made of?  Is time-travel possible?  In this installment we will start (though by no means finish) attacking these questions.

Way back in February, in the third installment of this series, I introduced the Objective Reality Hypothesis (ORH) with the slogan, "Things exist," with Things being deliberately capitalized to indicate that the word refers exclusively to physical objects.  The ORH, you will recall, says that the reason Things appear to exist is that they actually do exist, which seems absurdly obvious even though it will ultimately turn out to be false.  In this installment I am going to address another absurdly obvious hypothesis that will also turn out to be false.  I'm going to call it the Time Hypothesis, and its slogan, analogous to "Things exist" will be "things change" or "things happen", with the word "things" here deliberately starting with lower-case t.

To be more precise, the Time Hypothesis states that the reason we perceive that things change is because they actually do change in point of objective fact.  The reason I can say something like, "Back in February I published a blog post entitled "Things Exist" is that this actually happened.  Again, this seems absurdly obvious until you try to nail down what it means to say that something "actually happened".  It means something like: there is this thing (emphatically lower-case t) we call "time" which divides objective reality into two parts, "the past" and "the future", by a "moment" we call "now".  That "now" moment keeps "moving", always "into the future", turning parts of the future into the past at a seemingly steady rate.  The past and future maintain a sort of order.  There is the "recent past" and the "near future" which are in some sense closer to "now" than the "distant past" or the "distant future". But (and this is the important part) the only part of Objective Reality which is actually real is Now.  The past was real, but isn't any more.  The future will be real, but isn't yet.

A logical consequence of this is that there has to be some sense in which "now" is (more or less) the same for everyone, which indeed naively seems to be the case.  We can ask someone "what time is it now?" and expect to receive a sensible, informative answer.  We make schedules and appointments and predictions about the future and those appear to produce coherent behavior in our environments.  People and trains and planes don't always show up or depart "on time" but the phrase "on time" at least has a coherent meaning.  Likewise, we have memories and create records of the past that seem to have coherent meanings.  We can speak coherently of some events happening before or after others.  "The universe is 6000 years old" is a statement that may or may not be true, but it is a coherent claim that can be argued, as contrasted with, say, "Time wants to be green."  Time is the sort of thing that passes.  It is not the sort of thing that has color or desires.

Most importantly, time is something we can objectively measure using devices called clocks.  We can build two clocks, put them next to each other, and observe that their states are correlated (i.e. they show the "same time") despite the fact that there doesn't seem to be any direct causal connection between them.  If we have three clocks, we can destroy one of them and the other two will keep on doing their thing, indicating that their operation did not depend on the other clock.  Whatever keeps the clocks synchronized, it's not any kind of connection between the clocks, it is something outside the clocks, something that exists independent of the clocks.  It is at once objectively real (because we can measure it) and yet completely ineffable and mysterious.

One feature of time dominates the human experience: the events of the past seem to be objective facts which cannot be changed, but the events of the future are not.  There is a sense in which different things "could" happen in the future which is very different from the sense in which different things "could have happened" in the past.  The idea of traveling back in time and changing the past is a logically incoherent fantasy.  The idea of influencing future events is essential to our subjective perception of being sentient agents, of having free will.  We feel like we can make choices.  We do not feel like puppets on strings.  The winds of fate may blow, but we feel as if we nonetheless have a hand on the tiller.

This distinction between past and future, that the past is fixed, an unchangeable part of objective reality and the same for everyone, but that the future is still malleable, is an essential part of the human condition.  Almost everything we do depends on it.  We "prepare for the future" because we think there actually is such a thing as "the future" and it is the sort of thing that can be prepared for.  We have entire industries like insurance and finance based on the premise that the future is malleable but not entirely random, and we have other human institutions, like the law, based on the premise that the past is fixed and the same for everyone.

All this might seem like a tedious and unnecessary belaboring of the obvious.  I'm doing it for two reasons.  First, I want to very explicitly make the point that neither the Objective Reality Hypothesis nor the Time Hypothesis are assumptions baked into the scientific method, as religious apologists will often claim (I'm looking at you, Publius!)  They are not.  They are explanations of observations.  They are not often called out this way precisely because they are tediously obvious and everyone accepts them even if they don't think explicitly about why.  But they are explanations nonetheless.

The second reason I am taking pains to belabor this is that both the Objective Reality Hypothesis and the Time Hypothesis (as I've pointed out before) actually turn out to be wrong!  The Objective Reality Hypothesis is falsified by quantum mechanics, and the Time Hypothesis is falsified by relativity.  But I'm getting ahead of myself.  Let's forget both quantum mechanics and relativity for a moment and pretend that the world is purely Newtonian, that is, it really is just as it naively appears to be (at least to a modern eye): a world populated by Things, physical objects which behave according to strict laws that can be written with mathematical precision.  Furthermore, these laws have the property that they are deterministic: given a state of the world, the future motions of all of the Things in the world are fixed and cannot be changed.  Indeed, some parts of the universe seem to behave exactly like this, which is why can can predict some phenomena, like the movements of celestial bodies, with extreme precision.

This seems to lead to a Problem: if the universe really does behave according to deterministic laws, then the future can't be malleable.  And yet it manifestly is (or at least seems to be) especially when humans are involved.  This is what leads some people to conclude that our behavior cannot possibly be explained by deterministic mathematical laws, and so we humans must have some extra ingredient that allows us to somehow transcend determinism.

There are two problems with this argument.  First, it turns out that Newtonian mechanics is not 100% deterministic.  There is one known edge case (and possibly others) where the behavior predicted by Newton's laws is mathematically non-deterministic.  But these edge cases only arise, well, at the edges.  The tiniest deviation from the mathematical conditions they require gets you back to determinism, so it is not at clear whether this can plausibly account for non-deterministic behavior in humans.  The second problem, of course, is that nature is not actually Newtonian, but that is for another day.

A much more plausible explanation for apparent non-determinism is that past a certain point, the predictability of Newtonian systems falls to the limits of our ability to carry out the math.  It turns out that the reason we can predict the motions of celestial bodies as well as we can is not because we can actually make these predictions in general but because the  movements of celestial bodies just happen to fall within the bounds of a few special cases where we can carry out the math.  In general, if you have even just three objects with arbitrary masses and initial conditions, it is not possible, even in principle, to accurately predict how they will move.  This is the famous "three-body problem".  It turns out that these systems do admit partial solutions, so we can make some general predictions about their behavior even though we can't know exactly what they are going to do.  This is "chaos theory".  So it's possible that all of the apparent non-determinism in the universe is due to this effect.  The future really is fixed.  We can't possibly know what it is in every last detail, but God can.

Quantum mechanics offers a similar escape hatch from classical determinism.  Quantum randomness can be shown to be truly random, that is, not predictable from anything that exists in our universe, not even in principle.  But it's far from clear that this helps us recover agency from the stark mathematical facts.  Having your strings pulled by the flip of a coin isn't much better than having them pulled by deterministic laws.  Your strings are still being pulled by something that isn't you.

But there is something else we need to contend with: relativity.  I'm not going to try to give a full primer on relativity here.  I tried that in my first draft of this post and it spun wildly out of control (that's the reason it has taken me so long to post this).  Explaining relativity properly, accessibly, and completely turns out to be Really Hard (tm).  If you really want to understand it, I recommend this book by Tim Maudlin.

What I'm going to do here is to aim for two out of three: properness and accessibility at the expense of completeness.  I'm going to focus specifically on something that young-earth creationists tend to fixate on, and that is the fact (and it is a fact) that it is not possible to measure the one-way speed of light.  The reason YECs have a bee in their bonnet about this is that the fact that we can (apparently) see things that are further away than 6000 light years seems to indicate that the universe must be more than 6000 years old, and they can't have that.

Discussions of relativity usually start by stating as a bare fact that "the speed of light is constant in all inertial reference frames" and concluding from this that, among other things, "Moving clocks run slow."  There is also some common rhetoric, which I have employed myself, that "Everything is always moving at the speed of light through space-time, so the faster you move through space, the slower you move through time."  These things are not wrong per se, but they are misleading, and I feel like it's a disservice to people struggling to understand what is really going on to use this rhetoric.  (The real truth, of course, is that space-time is a curved four-dimensional manifold, but that's not much help either.)

The real struggle with understanding relativity is that the whole idea of "the speed of light" is misleading in two ways.  The first is that it has nothing to do with light.  It's really about the propagation of electromagnetic waves, of which light is but one example.   And it's not really that either, because gravitational waves also "propagate at the speed of light", and gravitational waves are not electromagnetic waves.

The second problem is that the "speed of light" is not a speed.  (Note that the video I've linked to here is AI-generated and not actually Leonard Susskind speaking.)

Wait, what?  Of course the speed of light is a speed!  It's 186,000 miles per second.  (Wikipedia says so, so it must be true!)  How is that not a speed?  Well, it's not a speed because the whole concept of "speed" depends on some assumptions about time that turn out not to be true.  Those assumptions start to creak around the edges when things start moving fast.  At "the speed of light" they break down completely.

Our day-to-day experience has two features that make it really hard to get away from our naive intuitions about speed.  The first is that we live on the surface of a planet, and that makes a natural reference frame that we tend to treat as absolute.  When we say, for example, that a car is moving at 60 miles per hour what we mean is that it's moving at 60 miles per hour relative to the surface of the earth.  And what we mean by that is that after an hour the car will have traveled 60 miles.  The phrase "after an hour" seem innocuous, but that is only because of the second feature of our day-to-day experience, which is that everything we're familiar with moves much, much slower than light.  The fastest man-made object ever was the Parker solar probe, which reached a top speed of 435,000 miles per hour at its closest approach to the sun.  That is less than 1% of the speed of light.  Closer to earth the fastest objects are satellites in low-earth orbit, which move at about 17,000 miles per hour, less than 0.003% of the speed of light.  Inside earth's atmosphere the fastest objects travel at a few times the speed of sound, which is pretty much indistinguishable from zero compared to light.

At those slow speeds, all clocks tick along at pretty much the same rate.  You can detect relativistic effects on the surface of the earth, but it takes extraordinary precision because the effects are so tiny.  For the most part you can say things like, "the distance traveled in an hour" without worrying about how you measure that hour.  But when things speed up that is no longer the case.  When things speed up, clocks start to behave very strangely.  When things speed up, phrases like "the distance traveled after an hour" start to become ambiguous.

I think the best place to anchor an intuitive understanding of relativity is to observe that mundane objects can travel at different speeds.  What this means in a world where we can't trust our intuitions about clocks is that it is possible for two objects to start moving from the same place at the same time, trace out the same trajectory (in space), and up up arriving in the same place but at different times.  Note that we don't need a clock to ascertain this.  To know that the speeds were different we don't need to know how much time has elapsed, only that one object arrived before the other.

With light, this is not possible.  If you take two beams of light and they travel along the same trajectory (in space) they will always arrive at their destination, wherever that may be, simultaneously.  You can throw a baseball faster or slower.  You can't do that with light.  You can change the power, you can change the frequency, you can change the speed of the source, but no matter what you do the light will always arrive at the same time as any other beam of light that started it journey at the same time and followed the same path.  This is both an experimentally observed fact and a theoretical prediction from the laws of electrodynamics.

A brief detour: the laws of electrodynamics are like Newton's laws but for electrically charged particles.  They were worked out in the 19th century and codified by James Clerk Maxwell into four concise equations that today bear his name.  If you take those equations and crunch the math in a certain way, what pops out is a description of something that looks like a wave traveling through space.  Moreover, the speed of that wave depends on some properties of the space it's traveling through — and nothing else.  We can measure those properties, and when you crunch the numbers the resulting speed turns out to be the measured value of the (round-trip) speed of light.  This is one of the ways we know that light is an electromagnetic wave, and why this speed is called "the speed of light" rather than "the speed of electromagnetism".

It is worth emphasizing that although we can't measure the one-way speed of light, we can measure its round-trip speed, that is to say, we can measure the time it takes for light to reach a distant object and return to its original location after being reflected back.  The reason we can do that is that this only requires one clock, whereas measuring the one-way speed would require two.  They would have to be far apart, and they would have to be synchronized, and that turns out to be impossible.  And, as previously noted, we can also demonstrate that, whatever the one-way speed might be, it's always the same for any two beams of light that follow the same trajectory.

Now, it is very, very tempting to say that because 1) all light that departs a location at the same time and moves along the same trajectory arrives at the same time and 2) the round-trip speed of light can be measured and it always comes out to be the same value, that the one-way speed of light must be this same value.  How could it be otherwise?  It is tempting, but it is wrong.  The reason it is wrong is because it considers the situation only from one point of view, from one frame of reference.  Again, it is very tempting to consider things from only one frame of reference because we have a natural frame of reference in the planet we all live on.  And it is possible that there is a privileged frame of reference, and it is even possible that earth is stationary with respect to that privileged frame of reference.  But here is the problem: if there is a privileged frame of reference, then there has to be an experiment we can do that tells us whether or not we are moving with respect to that frame.  The laws of physics would be different to a moving observer compared to a stationary one.  And we have tried many times to find such differences, but with no success.  In particular, we have failed to find any differences in the laws of electrodynamics resulting from the earth's movement around the sun.  Earth moves around the sun at about 30 meters per second, or 0.01% of the speed of light.  That's pretty slow, but plenty fast enough to be detectable using modern technology or clever experimental techniques.  (The first such experiment was done in 1887.)

Now let us consider the famous "light clock" experiment.  This is usually set up as one experimenter on a moving train (the "moving experimenter") and another standing nearby on the ground (the "stationary experimenter") but this again is misleading.  All motion is relative, so there is nothing about the train that allows it to be designated as "moving" while the person standing on the ground is "stationary".  Instead let's make the situation perfectly symmetric by putting both experimenters on trains traveling in opposite directions.  I'm going to call them Linda and Ralph.  Linda is on a train moving left, and Ralph is on a train moving right.  The instant they pass each other they each turn on a light located on the floor of their respective trains.  Next to each light source is a clock, and on the ceiling of the train is a mirror.  The clock is going to measure the time it takes for the light to bounce off the mirror and return to the clock.  Because the setup is symmetric, both clocks are going to register the same result.  It doesn't matter what the actual number is.  What matters is that both clocks will give the same result, and both Linda and Ralph will agree on what that result was.

What Linda and Ralph will not agree on (and this is the key!) is how far the light traveled!  Each one will look at the light in the other train and insist that it traveled farther than it did in their train because the clock in the other train moved in between when the light was turned on and when it returned to the clock.  So for both Linda and Ralph, the path traced out by the light in the other train is longer than the path traced by the light in their own train.  And yet, they will both agree that the clock readings were the same.

How is this possible?  If we were talking about baseballs the answer would be simple: the speed of the ball depended on who was watching it.  Linda would see Ralph's ball moving faster than her own, and Ralph would see Linda's ball moving faster than his.

But for light, as we noted above, this is not possible.  All light moves at the same speed.

So the only conclusion that Linda can reach is that Ralph's clock is wrong, and likewise the only conclusion that Ralph can reach is that Linda's clock is wrong.  But note that this disagreement originated as a disagreement over the distance that the light traveled.  Linda and Ralph each sees the other's light travel a longer distance than their own.  So this ultimately boils down to a seemingly mundane disagreement over where "here" is.  Linda's "here" is not the same as Ralph's -- except at the instant that they pass each other.  That part is easy to understand.  But put that together with the observed (and theoretically predicted) fact that light can only move at one speed and the logical consequence is that not only do they disagree about where "here" is (except at the instant that they pass each other) they will also disagree about when now is (again, except at the instant that they pass each other).  At the instant that they pass each other, Linda and Ralph share a single "here" and "now".  But as soon as they start to move apart both their "here" and their "now" begin to diverge.

This has profound philosophical implications.  Linda sees Ralph's clocks running slow, and Ralph sees Linda's clocks running slow.  This means that Linda sees herself moving into the future faster than Ralph, and Ralph sees himself moving into the future faster than Linda.  And this in turn means that Linda's "now" is Ralph's future, and Ralph's "now" is Linda's future.  But this is true in general, not just for this specific setup.  And that means that there are potential observers in our universe for which our future is in their past, and that is only possible if our future already exists.

I'm going to stop there for now and leave you with three exercises as homework.

First, think about what happens if Linda and Ralph are moving fast enough so that they each see other's light moving at a 45-degree angle relative to their direction of motion, i.e. each one see's the other's train moving the same distance sideways as the light moves vertically.  How fast is that?  The intuitive answer is that it would have to be the speed of light.  In order to move the same distance sideways in the same amount of time as it takes for the light moves vertically you have to be traveling at the same speed, right?  But no, that is wrong.  Remember, light travels at the same speed for all observers, but different observers will disagree about where the same light starts and ends, and so they will disagree about the distance that it travels, and hence the time it takes to get there.  I'm going to leave it as an exercise to figure out how fast you need to move to turn vertical light into 45-degree-angle light.  Hint: it's less than the speed of light.

Second question: what would actually happen if the trains could move past each other at the speed of light?  What would happen to Linda and Ralph's here's and now's?

Question 3: you may have heard of the twin paradox.  If Linda and Ralph are twins and Linda takes a trip into outer space and returns, she will be younger than Ralph.  This is (the story goes) a consequence of her clocks running slower.  But this is not possible because all motion is relative, so there is no sense in which you can say that Linda "went into space and came back".  From Linda's point of view, it is Ralph who went into space and came back, and so Ralph should be younger.  But that's obviously not possible.  How do we reconcile this apparent contradiction?  Hint: the usual answer is that it has something to do with acceleration, but this is wrong.  We can set up the experiment in such a way that nothing is accelerated.  To do this we use three clocks.  One is stationary, one is moving to the right, and the third is moving to the left.  Let's call them S, R and L.  We start with clocks S and R at the same location and we synchronize them.  Clock L is initially to the right of the other two.  Because L and R and moving towards each other, they will meet.  When they do, we synchronize them.  Clock L will then return to S.  The total time registered by L will be less than the time registered by S despite the fact that nothing has accelerated.

If you manage to answer that last puzzle you will have a true understanding of how time actually works.

The bottom line here is that relativity shows that the naive Time Hypothesis cannot be true.  Not even God can know what time it is.  The question "What time is it?" simply does not have an objectively correct answer.  Just as there can be legitimate disagreement among observers of where "here" is, there is legitimate disagreement over when "now" is.

55 comments:

  1. Ho ho ho! Number 11!! This one might be a little tricky for me, but I will do my best!

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  2. > "codified by James Clerk Maxwell into four concise equations"

    Just as a minor, trivial, historical nit: Maxwell originally published 20 equations. The four equations that everyone uses instead as "Maxwell's equations" were actually a re-written much more concise vector calculus form by Heaviside.

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    1. Oliver Heaviside is also the source of the Heaviside Layer in Cats.

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    2. I have not yet seen Cats. But when I saw the outlines of the story and that the cats are seeking the "heavy-side layer", I am thinking, what sort of thing could that possibly be? There must be some serious creativity to come up with something called the heavy-side layer for a musical about cats.

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  3. Is your theory of time the A-series of time or the B-series of time? Perhaps you're C-series?

    See The Unreality of Time by J. E. McTaggart

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    1. None of the above. Space-like separated events cannot be objectively ordered, so events form a DAG, not a series. (This paper was written in 1908 so McTaggart can be forgiven for not knowing this.)

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    2. A DAG is consistent with McTaggart's B-relations. It only restricts which pairs of events can stand in a B-relation. Time-like and light-like related events are ordered; space-like separated events are not. That is still a B-structure -- earlier/later along causal curves -- a partial order rather than McTaggart's total B-series. His C-series was already an order without A-properties. Relativity makes the order partial. It does not make the A/B questions obsolete.

      The naive Time Hypothesis, as you defined it, is the moving Now: only Now is real, and it is the same Now for everyone. Relativity kills that global Now. What you put in its place is another thesis. You write that Linda and Ralph's disagreement about now "is only possible if our future already exists." That does not follow from the fact that there is no unique simultaneity relation on space-like pairs. It follows only if (1) whatever lies on an observer's simultaneity slice is real and (2) reality does not depend on frame. Those are extra premises. That is a metaphysical commitment to eternalism, a block universe. Relativity does not say that a future event on Linda's worldline is actual at her now. It says Ralph may stamp a space-like event with the same time coordinate as that now. Treating that coordinatization as an inventory of what exists is the Rietdijk–Putnam leap, which is treating the coordinates as a list:

      1. Event E is on Ralph's "now" slice while it is still future for Linda (a coordinate fact).

      2. Therefore E exists (an ontological fact).

      3. Existence does not depend on whether we use Ralph's chart or Linda's.

      4. So if E is future-for-Linda but now-for-Ralph, E already exists for Linda.

      (1) is physics-plus-convention. (2)–(4) are metaphysics. Relativity gives you (1): Linda and Ralph disagree about which distant events share a time coordinate. It does not give you (2). Treating (1) as if it already included (2) is the leap.

      Those same extra premises drive "not even God can know what time it is." That view incorrectly treats God as another observer in the manifold. It is a category error. God knows the temporal order completely, whatever belongs on its inventory. God is not an event among events and does not have a now. Eternity, to God, is one act that knows and causes the whole temporal order -- every event, every worldline, every local present.

      Ironically, your view of the block universe is compatible with the divine simplicity of classical theism.

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    3. > A DAG is consistent with McTaggart's B-relations.

      No. Both the A and B series are series. The only difference is that the A series is indexed to "now" (which is constantly changing) and the B series isn't.

      Again, McTaggart was writing in 1908. "Electrodynamics of Moving Bodies" had only been published three years prior and it was not widely known, especially outside the physics community. Einstein was not yet famous -- that would not happen until 1919. Everyone except a tiny handful of physicists still had a Newtonian view of time.

      > The naive Time Hypothesis, as you defined it, is the moving Now: only Now is real, and it is the same Now for everyone. Relativity kills that global Now. What you put in its place is another thesis. You write that Linda and Ralph's disagreement about now "is only possible if our future already exists." That does not follow from the fact that there is no unique simultaneity relation on space-like pairs. It follows only if (1) whatever lies on an observer's simultaneity slice is real and (2) reality does not depend on frame.

      No, it follows from the definition of objective reality. Objective reality is that which is not contingent on anyone's views or opinions. The ORH says that the reason you see the chair is not that your observation of the chair brings it into existence, but rather the chair exists whether or not you or anyone else is observing it. If something is objectively real then *by definition* it is objectively real for everyone. So if a moment in time is (or was) objectively real for anyone then *by definition* it is/was/will-be objectively real for everyone. (It's hard to render this idea into words because Newtonian assumptions are woven deeply into English grammar.)

      > That is a metaphysical commitment to eternalism, a block universe.

      No, it isn't. It is a logical consequence of the definition of objective reality plus the fact that people have legitimate disagreements over the referent of the word "now".

      > Treating that coordinatization as an inventory of what exists is the Rietdijk–Putnam leap

      Calling it a "leap" is a bit of a leap. But yes, Rietdijk and Putnam (and Penrose) deserve the credit here.

      > Those same extra premises drive "not even God can know what time it is." That view incorrectly treats God as another observer in the manifold.

      No, the reason God can't know what time it is has nothing to do with any limitation on God, it has to do with the fact that "what time is it?" does not have an objectively correct answer any more than "which was is up?" does. The answer to both questions depends on who is asking.

      > God knows the temporal order completely, whatever belongs on its inventory. God is not an event among events and does not have a now. Eternity, to God, is one act that knows and causes the whole temporal order -- every event, every worldline, every local present.

      Maybe. Open theists (like Samuel) would disagree.

      > Ironically, your view of the block universe is compatible with the divine simplicity of classical theism.

      Why "ironically"? The title of this series is "Seeking God in Science." Why would it be ironic if we actually found him?

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    4. >Open theists (like Samuel) would disagree.

      It sounds like something I would disagree with. Publius and I would both agree that God doesn't have to wait for photons to hit His eye before he can see what's going on in the universe. But Publius seems to think that is because from God's perspective, all future and past events are all happening at the the same time. That is one place where we would definitely disagree.

      Sadly I haven't been able to finish reading this installment yet. I remember getting some of this stuff embarrassingly wrong on Reddit before so I hoping to find a time soon where I can concentrate enough while reading it so that it really sinks in. XD

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    5. @Ron:
      >No. Both the A and B series are series. The only difference is that the A series is indexed to "now" (which is constantly changing) and the B series isn't.

      You need to read more carefully. I wrote "B-relations". A series is a total order. Relativity replaces that with a partial order on events: timelike and lightlike pairs are ordered, spacelike pairs are not. McTaggart's B-relations are earlier/later relations. Restricting which pairs stand in those relations does not abolish B-structure. It makes the B-order partial. The open question is still whether becoming (A-properties) is real, or only tenseless earlier/later relations are.

      >No, it isn't. It is a logical consequence of the definition of objective reality plus the fact that people have legitimate disagreements over the referent of the word "now".

      Relativity of simultaneity is not a disagreement about whether chairs exist. It is a disagreement about which spacelike events receive the same time coordinate after a conventional synchronization. Linda and Ralph still have well-defined proper futures along their worldlines. What they lack is a shared distant "now." That undercuts your naive Time Hypothesis. It does not, by itself, put Linda's future events into the inventory of what exists.

      The inference you need is still:

      (1) Event E lies on Ralph's simultaneity slice while it is still future for Linda.

      (2) Therefore E exists.

      (1) is physics plus convention. (2) is ontology. "If it is objectively real for anyone, it is real for everyone" gets you (2) only if "real" for Ralph already means exists, rather than is simultaneous-with-Ralph on the labeling Ralph uses to assign times to distant events. That is the Rietdijk–Putnam leap. Calling it a definition of objective reality does not justify it.

      >No, the reason God can't know what time it is has nothing to do with any limitation on God, it has to do with the fact that "what time is it?" does not have an objectively correct answer any more than "which was is up?" does. The answer to both questions depends on who is asking.

      “What time is it?” has no unique answer among inertial observers. God is not one more observer. He does not have a rest frame or a now. He knows the whole temporal order -- every event, every worldline, every local present -- in one act. That is more than knowing a cosmic now, and it does not require the question to have a single answer inside the manifold.

      >Maybe. Open theists (like Samuel) would disagree.

      Open theism is a different dispute about whether future contingents are determinate. It is not required by relativity. Relativity does not decide whether tomorrow's free acts are already there. It is also an intramural argument about how God knows free acts, not a consequence of the gospel. Faith in Christ does not require a theory of simultaneity.

      >Why "ironically"? The title of this series is "Seeking God in Science." Why would it be ironic if we actually found him?

      "Ironically" because you have been treating classical theism as an extra hypothesis science can do without, while the block you infer is close to the Boethian picture: the whole temporal order present to one act of knowledge. Compatibility is not discovery. Relativity still does not tell you whether that order is created, or whether "exists" includes the future. Those remain the metaphysical questions you said science does not assume.

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    6. > I wrote "B-relations".

      Indeed you did. But you never defined it, and McTaggart never uses the phrase. So it's not unreasonable to assume that what you meant by "B-relations" is: the relations that define the B-series. Which is a series.

      > You need to read more carefully.

      You need to write more carefully.

      > The open question is still whether becoming (A-properties) is real, or only tenseless earlier/later relations are.

      No, that is not an open question. If an event is objectively real for any observer then it must be objectively real for all observers. That is the definition of objectively real. Indeed, it is not even necessary for there to be an observer. Under the ORH, chairs exist even when no one is sitting in them.

      > Relativity of simultaneity is not a disagreement about whether chairs exist. It is a disagreement about which spacelike events receive the same time coordinate after a conventional synchronization.

      That's right, which is just a highfalutin' way of saying that it's a disagreement over when "now" is.

      > Linda and Ralph still have well-defined proper futures along their worldlines. What they lack is a shared distant "now." That undercuts your naive Time Hypothesis. It does not, by itself, put Linda's future events into the inventory of what exists.

      I never said it did. It is the ORH which does that heavy lifting.

      (Spoiler alert: as we will see when we get to quantum mechanics, the ORH is wrong.)

      > (1) Event E lies on Ralph's simultaneity slice while it is still future for Linda.

      No. It is the ORH that gives us the objective reality of E, not Ralph. Ralph has nothing to do with it. If you really want to personify this, add an observer at E and call him Eddie. E is objectively real for Eddie, therefore, by the ORH, E must be objectively real for everyone, including Linda and Ralph no matter what their frames of reference may be. And note that Eddie is not actually necessary for this argument to hold.

      > (2) Therefore E exists.

      No. The existence of E is a given, a premise. The Big Reveal is not that E exists, it is that *if* E exists *then* it must exist both in the past for some observers and in the future for others.

      > Faith in Christ does not require a theory of simultaneity.

      Faith in general does not require a theory of anything. That's what faith *means* -- belief without a theory.

      > "Ironically" because you have been treating classical theism as an extra hypothesis science can do without, while the block you infer is close to the Boethian picture: the whole temporal order present to one act of knowledge.

      I have no idea what you mean by "treating classical theism as an extra hypothesis". I have not addressed classical theism *at all*. (Yet.)

      I would be interested to know, though, what specific observations you think require classical theism to explain.

      > Relativity still does not tell you whether that order is created, or whether "exists" includes the future. Those remain the metaphysical questions you said science does not assume.

      "Exists" according to the current state of things in this series is a hypothetical explanation to account for the fact that people (mostly) agree about chairs. The explanation is that chairs really do exist in point of actual physical and meta-physical fact. I haven't gone into much detail about what the word "exists" actually *means* in that context, but informally it is something like: it is made of atoms, it occupies a specific subset of spacetime, it has mass, it obeys Newtonian or relativistic dynamics, and so on.

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  4. I'm not sure I understand why relativity is necessary to refute creationism.

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    1. It isn't. Creationism can be refuted in myriad ways. But it's important to understand relativity because it's one of the foundational ideas on which all of modern science rests. If you don't understand it, you are vulnerable to being fooled by charlatans likethis guy.

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    2. >I'm not sure I understand why relativity is necessary to refute creationism.

      How would you refute the idea that the universe has a creator?

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  5. I played with the Slower Speed of Light simulation and the speed of light seems more intuitive in the simulation than when it's described in words. In my understanding, relativistic effects are all due to light moving at finite speed. We're all used to living with things that are slow. Slow traffic, slow computers. It becomes much more confusing when described in words, and still more confusing when you have to do the calculations. But slow light makes intuitive sense.

    One thing that throws me when I try to imagine special relativity is how, when the light clock is parallel to your direction of motion, an outside observer sees the light take longer when going in one direction than the other. Whereas, to an observer on the space ship, both directions take the same amount of time.

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  6. >First, think about what happens if Linda and Ralph are moving fast enough so that they each see other's light moving at a 45-degree angle relative to their direction of motion, i.e. each one see's the other's train moving the same distance sideways as the light moves vertically. How fast is that?

    So, I got this far into your post and I've tried really hard but it seems to me we can't know the answer to this without knowing the 1 way speed of light. Maybe I am confused about what "frames of reference" are? I don't know.

    :(

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    1. A "frame of reference" is just a point of view. If you say that something is moving, that motion has to be reckoned *relative to something*. That something is the frame of reference. Ralph's frame of reference is the train he is on, and Linda's frame of reference is the train she is on.

      But you are actually on the right track when you realize that this question is hard without knowing the one-way speed. Hint: just assume the one-way speed is c and see what happens.

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    2. So then answer 1 would be half the speed of light

      I think answer 2 would be that the light will completely horizontal, (meaning they wouldn't see each others light move at all?)

      And the problem with 3 is that from the S clock, the L and R clocks would appear to be running slow. But to me this sounds too close to how creationists try to solve the "distant starlight problem". Because it sounds to me like both Linda and Ralph started and different distances away from the S clock and both traveled towards it at the speed of light, then the S clock would register them both as arriving at the same time. So I must not be really understanding this yet.

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    3. > So then answer 1 would be half the speed of light

      No, but you're in the ballpark. Remember Pythagoras.

      > I think answer 2 would be that the light will completely horizontal, (meaning they wouldn't see each others light move at all?)

      Yes! Now think about what it means to "not see light move at all" in light (no pun intended) of the fact that light always moves at the same speed.

      > from the S clock, the L and R clocks would appear to be running slow.

      Exactly right.

      > it sounds to me like both Linda and Ralph started and different distances away from the S clock and both traveled towards it at the speed of light

      No, nothing is moving at the speed of light in this scenario. Also, there are no Linda and Ralph, just three clocks, one stationary (S) one moving to the left (L) and one moving to the right (R). Initially the S and R clocks are in the same location, and the L clock is somewhere to the right.

      SR L

      Then after a while the L and R clocks meet

      S RL

      At that point we synchronize them. Then the clocks keep moving and the L clock eventually gets to S:

      SL R

      At that point the L clock has tallied up the total time elapsed for a "twin" moving from S out to some place out in space (the place where L and R met) and then back again, but without having to accelerate anything. It's just a way of setting up the twin paradox in a way that general relativity doesn't come into play.

      > to me this sounds too close to how creationists try to solve the "distant starlight problem".

      Yes, understanding where those arguments fail is exactly what we're working up to.

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    4. Blogger comments ate my spaces. Let's see if I can do this with dots:

      Initially the S and R clocks are in the same location, and the L clock is somewhere to the right.

      SR..................L

      Then after a while the L and R clocks meet

      S........RL

      At that point we synchronize them. Then the clocks keep moving and the L clock eventually gets to S:

      SL...................R

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    5. >No, but you're in the ballpark. Remember Pythagoras

      I was thinking 45 degrees would be half the speed of light because its half way between a vertical line and a horizontal line. I can't think of a better answer

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    6. >Now think about what it means to "not see light move at all" in light (no pun intended) of the fact that light always moves at the same speed.

      So it would mean time has stopped.

      >At that point the L clock has tallied up the total time elapsed for a "twin" moving from S out to some place out in space (the place where L and R met) and then back again, but without having to accelerate anything. It's just a way of setting up the twin paradox in a way that general relativity doesn't come into play.

      Well from the S clock's point of view, neither L or R clock would change while they were moving. So R would still be at S when L arrives there. Either that or the clocks are not working, no?

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    7. > So it would mean time has stopped.

      Yes, exactly right! So then the next question is: if time stops for something moving at the speed of light (and it does) then how can time elapse when a beam of light travels to a mirror and is reflected back?

      > Well from the S clock's point of view, neither L or R clock would change while they were moving.

      That would be right if L and R were moving at the speed of light, but physical clocks can't actually move that fast. Physical clock appear to run slow when they move fast, but they never actually stop.

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    8. >Yes, exactly right! So then the next question is: if time stops for something moving at the speed of light (and it does) then how can time elapse when a beam of light travels to a mirror and is reflected back?

      Ahhh ok! So I think you and I would disagree about what it means for time to stop. I would appreciate it if you can tell me how I am wrong here, but to me it doesn't actually mean that *time stops* it just means you have nothing measurable that you can be affected by. That there is nothing which can cause a perceivable change (while at light speed)to be used to *count the passing of time*.

      We can measure how fast it moves, but we can't send it a letter that says "It's been 2 minutes since you left your starting point".

      To me, this doesn't mean that time actually *stops* at the speed of light. It just means that light is in something like a solitary confinement cell. Your question has actually reminded me of this, because they never turn the lights off when you are in one. And a light and a mirror are about all you have in your cell besides a bed and a toilet. Except for your meal trays, you don't really have much else to keep track of time. But that doesn't mean time stops between 4pm dinner tray and your 5am breakfast tray.

      Samuel > Well from the S clock's point of view, neither L or R clock would change while they were moving.

      Ron>That would be right if L and R were moving at the speed of light, but physical clocks can't actually move that fast. Physical clock appear to run slow when they move fast, but they never actually stop.

      Sorry I keep making the mistake of reading that question wrong. You have actually done a very good job of conveying things in this post without really having to depend on any visual aids. I think sometimes it is better that way, actually. Not always, but sometimes.

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    9. > I would appreciate it if you can tell me how I am wrong here

      Sorry, can't do that, because you're not wrong :-) (You're not quite right either, but you're a lot closer to the right answer than you seem to think you are.)

      > We can measure how fast it moves

      No, we can't! The only thing we can actually measure is how much time elapses between when we send out a beam of light and when that beam of light returns to us after having been reflected by some object. That *seems* like it *ought* to be the same as "measuring how fast it moves" but it's not.

      > light is in something like a solitary confinement cell ... you don't really have much else to keep track of time

      Not a good analogy. Your heart is still beating and you are still breathing. The state that light is in is more akin to being cryogenically frozen.

      > Sorry I keep making the mistake of reading that question wrong. You have actually done a very good job of conveying things in this post without really having to depend on any visual aids. I think sometimes it is better that way, actually. Not always, but sometimes.

      Not relying on visual aids or math is partly self-discipline and partly due to the fact that I have no skill as a graphic artist. But ChatGPT actually does a pretty good job at making diagrams, so I might start using more of those.

      The problem is that to really get the point across where time is concerned you need animations, and that is something I'm totally inept at. I haven't tried AI for that yet.

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    10. >Not a good analogy. Your heart is still beating and you are still breathing. The state that light is in is more akin to being cryogenically frozen.

      I think you are proving my own point for me here.

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    11. >The only thing we can actually measure is how much time elapses between when we send out a beam of light and when that beam of light returns to us after having been reflected by some object. That *seems* like it *ought* to be the same as "measuring how fast it moves" but it's not.

      Alright, I must try harder to remember this but it sounds like it makes sense. At least I feel like I am understanding this better than before. Hahaha that is crazy!

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  7. > And that means that there are potential observers in our universe for which our future is in their past, and that is only possible if our future already exists.

    I think that Sabine Hossenfelder may be a bit of a jokester. She says things that sound ludicrous with a straight face. Like, she told a man his dead grandmother may still be alive because of uncertainty in the arrival time of light, which would amount to maybe milliseconds.

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    1. Yes, Sabine has a wry sense of humor. But the future's objective existence as a logical consequence of relativity is no joke. Sabine is a superdeterminist.

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    2. Superdeterminism, if I understand it, makes a whole lot of sense. The argument against it seems to be that it's absurd to think that the choices of the experimenter could be part of the same system that determines the outcomes of the measurements, because, then you don't have free will, and that's just absurd. The superdeterministic perspective seems to be compatible with many worlds, in that, even though you may not be able to know which branch you will find yourself in, you can expect it to be self-consistent. I'm not aware of an interpretation of QM that can't be derided as absurd in some way. It's one absurdity or another.

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    3. It seems to me that free will could be defined as the freedom to make choices that come from outside of the universe. E.g., Picasso's decision to create Cubism can't be attributed to conditions in the art world at that time. Historians describe that kind of logic as *ahistorical*, which is their version of a putdown, I think.

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    4. > Superdeterminism, if I understand it, makes a whole lot of sense. The argument against it seems to be that it's absurd to think that the choices of the experimenter could be part of the same system that determines the outcomes of the measurements, because, then you don't have free will, and that's just absurd.

      That's mostly right, but I would push back a little on "that's just absurd." The objection is a little more principled than that. You have to somehow explain our subjective perception that the past is determined but the future is malleable, and just saying "free will is an illusion" seems a little too facile.

      > The superdeterministic perspective seems to be compatible with many worlds, in that, even though you may not be able to know which branch you will find yourself in, you can expect it to be self-consistent.

      No, superdeterminism is an alternative to many-worlds. The whole point of superdeterminism is to try to retain a single classical reality.

      > I'm not aware of an interpretation of QM that can't be derided as absurd in some way. It's one absurdity or another.

      Yes, it has been said that QM obeys the law of conservation of weirdness. But it turns out even that has an explanation! Stay tuned :-)

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    5. Thanks for your reply.

      > You have to somehow explain our subjective perception that the past is determined but the future is malleable,

      This gets at something that I don't understand. Sean Carroll made a "Great Courses" course for The Teaching Company about the physics of time. Normally I'm a fan of Carroll's explanations, but he kept repeating that we should be surprised that we remember yesterday and predict tomorrow, and that eggs can be observed to break but broken eggs are never seen to reassemble themselves. I can't understand why I should be surprised by this. One reason seems to be that the laws of mechanics (as we currently understand them) work both forwards and backwards. I'm not sure if I follow the other reasons as well, but one reason seems to be that the Universe started in a state of low entropy, which lacks an intuitive explanation, and that time, despite having a fruitful marriage with space in spacetime, seems to behave differently than space.
      I'm aware of all these things, but I can't understand why I should find this situation so surprising. What is the logic that says that the properties of time are especially surprising, say, and the laws of mechanics are unsurprising? Statistical mechanics provides a powerful explanation for why eggs don't unbreak themselves, and remembering the future is obviously nonsensical.
      Sure, time is mysterious, but so are all kinds of things. I mean, if, like a child, you keep asking why? why? why? you eventually hit a brick wall. It doesn't matter what you're asking about. On some level, it just is, because we look and that's what we see.
      So what is it about time going in one direction that I should be especially surprised by?

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  8. > Thanks for your reply.

    Of course.

    > we should be surprised that we remember yesterday and predict tomorrow, and that eggs can be observed to break but broken eggs are never seen to reassemble themselves. I can't understand why I should be surprised by this. One reason seems to be that the laws of mechanics (as we currently understand them) work both forwards and backwards.

    Yes, that is exactly it. There are a number of big disconnects between our subjective perceptions and our current best explanations of how the physical world works.

    > What is the logic that says that the properties of time are especially surprising, say, and the laws of mechanics are unsurprising?

    There isn't any. Which side of the disconnect you find surprising depends on whether you approach the question as a layman or as a physicist. Carroll is a physicist so he's surprised by our subjective perceptions. But, of course, most people are not physicists so they are surprised by the physics.

    > Statistical mechanics provides a powerful explanation for why eggs don't unbreak themselves, and remembering the future is obviously nonsensical.

    Unfortunately that's not quite true. It begs the question: why did the universe start in a low-entropy state? It also doesn't explain why the Second Law is so universal. For any increasing-entropy state there is a corresponding decreasing-entropy state, so if you make a random isolated system the odds of producing one in an increasing-entropy state seem a priori like it ought to be 50%. But it's not. It's 100%. Why?

    > Sure, time is mysterious, but so are all kinds of things. I mean, if, like a child, you keep asking why? why? why? you eventually hit a brick wall. It doesn't matter what you're asking about. On some level, it just is, because we look and that's what we see.

    The problem with time is not that we hit the brick wall of recurrent whys. The problem is that when we probe the workings of the universe what we find are mechanisms and constraints that are violently at odds with our everyday experiences and intuitions. And the problem is not just our subjective experience of time that is problematic. Our subjective sensation of time is very heavily corroborated by objective reality: there really are (or at least appear to be) clocks whose states correlate to *something* we call "time". How is that even possible if time is not an objectively real thing?

    > So what is it about time going in one direction that I should be especially surprised by?

    That is not the surprising part. The surprising part is that it is really hard to find an *explanation* for time going in one direction. It is also surprising that when we start seeking such explanations what we find is a lot of evidence that the underlying objective reality of time is radically different from what we perceive, notwithstanding the existence of clocks, and that they seem to be conceptually straightforward devices whose behavior corresponds to our intuitions and subjective experiences most of the time.

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    1. > Unfortunately that's not quite true. It begs the question: why did the universe start in a low-entropy state?

      Ok. If the universe started in a high-entropy state, it would have begun as soup and it would still be soup, as far as I can tell. Initial low entropy is necessary for any kind of structure to form-- like humans, I think. So this is part of the ur-question of "why do I exist?"

      > It also doesn't explain why the Second Law is so universal.

      Isn't it true that entropy is subjective in a way? It's like, from my position as a giant human, these microstates look the same to me. Maybe there's a little demon that thinks that one microstate is more aesthetically pleasing than another one, even though they look identical to a giant oafish human, who lacks discerning taste for microstates and declares them the same.

      > For any increasing-entropy state there is a corresponding decreasing-entropy state, so if you make a random isolated system the odds of producing one in an increasing-entropy state seem a priori like it ought to be 50%. But it's not. It's 100%. Why?

      This seems interesting because there's something quantitative to grab hold of. "There are as many increasing-entropy states as decreasing-entropy states." By far the greatest number of states would be approximately break-even, I think. Once you have chosen a state, there's not much mystery about how it evolves. You could simulate the atoms deterministically on a computer and watch the system become higher entropy.

      You could pick a pseudorandom number generator and simulate this with high fidelity on a computer 100% deterministically.

      > How is that even possible if time is not an objectively real thing?

      Wait, when did we decide that time is not an objectively real thing?

      Einstein showed how the rates of natural processes are pegged to the speed of light. That's not the same as saying that time isn't "real." Maybe you could say that, on a macro scale, time is an imprecise concept. On the scale of fundamental particles, it's pretty precise.

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    2. @Ron
      I don't understand why it's surprising that the second law of thermodynamics is universal. Can't you simulate the entire process with a computer?

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    3. > Can't you simulate the entire process with a computer?

      Why do you think that has anything to do with it?

      > I don't understand why it's surprising that the second law of thermodynamics is universal.

      I explained this in the comment you're replying to:

      "For any increasing-entropy state there is a corresponding decreasing-entropy state, so if you make a random isolated system the odds of producing one in an increasing-entropy state seem a priori like it ought to be 50%. But it's not. It's 100%. Why?"

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    4. @Ron
      > Why do you think that has anything to do with it?

      I guess because it seems like there can't be any deep mystery here. You can set up a model of a system in a computer and watch the atoms bounce around and seek a higher-entropy state. If you think you see something that defies explanation, you can rerun it as many times as you like and watch every single atom and what it does.

      The lower entropy states are much less likely than the high entropy states. The chance of picking a low entropy state at random would be infinitesimally small, I think, whether increasing or decreasing.

      I must be missing something. I'm not a statistician or mathematician, so I don't expect that I can analyze this question in any convincing way. But I'm not surprised that omelettes don't turn back into eggs, and I doubt that will ever be.

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    5. @Ron
      It seems to me like in the Sean Carroll videos, and maybe in this discussion, the claim was being made that thermodynamics actually creates time. It's possible that I misunderstood, but that makes no sense to me.

      > How is that even possible if time is not an objectively real thing?

      I still don't understand this statement. How can you say time isn't "real?"

      As I acknowledged, yes, Einstein found that different observers will measure time differently.

      > That is not the surprising part. The surprising part is that it is really hard to find an *explanation* for time going in one direction.

      Okay... what's the explanation for space going in more than one direction? Why am I not surprised by that?

      > find is a lot of evidence that the underlying objective reality of time is radically different from what we perceive

      You just contradicted yourself. Up above you said time has no objective reality. Now you're talking about "the underlying objective reality of time".

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    6. > The lower entropy states are much less likely than the high entropy states.

      Empirically that is true. Theoretically it's not. That's the mystery.

      > what's the explanation for space going in more than one direction?

      You misunderstood what I meant by "going in one direction". Time only seems to move into the future, never into the past. But you can move in space both forwards and backwards, left and right, up and down. The "more than one direction" doesn't refer to the three dimensions of space, it refers to the signs of the components of your velocity vector.

      > Up above you said time has no objective reality

      Yeah, well, that's pretty radically different from your subjective perception, isn't it?

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    7. @Ron
      > Empirically that is true. Theoretically it's not. That's the mystery.

      My understanding of entropy is that the system is trying to find macro-states that have ever greater numbers of micro-states. So, the fact that higher-entropy macro-states are more likely is built into the definition. It's because they have more micro-states in them.

      > You misunderstood what I meant by "going in one direction".

      My wording was ambiguous, but no, I understand that.

      > Time only seems to move into the future, never into the past. But you can move in space both forwards and backwards, left and right, up and down.

      Ok... let's call time a "1-way dimension" and each of the 3 dimensions of space "2-way dimensions".

      I can't think of why 1-way dimensions are surprising and 2-way dimensions are unsurprising. The ancient Greeks knew that time only goes in one direction, and there's no record of them being surprised.

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    8. > the fact that higher-entropy macro-states are more likely is built into the definition. It's because they have more micro-states in them

      Yes, that seems intuitively plausible, but there are two problems. First, there is nothing in the laws of physics that tell you how to group micro states into macro states. It's completely arbitrary, kind of like the one-way speed of light. And second, the counting argument only works if future states are selected at random, but they aren't. States evolve according to dynamical laws that are both deterministic and reversible, so every state will that evolves into a more-likely macro state in one direction will evolve into a less-likely one in the other no matter how you group micro states into macro states.

      > I can't think of why 1-way dimensions are surprising and 2-way dimensions are unsurprising.

      Again, it's because in the dynamical laws that (as far as we can tell) govern the behavior of objects there is nothing that assigns a privileged direction to any of the dimensions. In relativity it's particularly weird because which direction is the time direction is itself relative to the observer.

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    9. @Ron
      > In relativity it's particularly weird because which direction is the time direction is itself relative to the observer.

      Is there any chance that we're taking the notion of the equivalence of space and time a little too seriously? I know that there seems to be utility in thinking of it that way if you're trying to get an intuitive understanding of Einstein's theories. But it seems to lead to weird paradoxes that make people surprised when ordinary things happen.

      This is hard for me to express clearly, since I'm weak on the math, but I'll try... Is there some kind of way to factor out the observer-dependence of relativity and calculate some function that quantifies "spacetime curvature" across some kind of neutral background, like I believe you can with quantum fields (or even classical fields, I think)? You could say that light travels at different speeds in different places. If I understand correctly, relativity dictates that an observer will always _measure_ light to be the same speed, not that light necessarily always _has_ the same speed. The observer is essentially made out of light, so that can explain why s/he always sees light going the same speed. If you observe an object falling into a black hole, the object appears to slow down and stop at the event horizon. You can explain this as time slowing down and stopping, or you can explain it as light being slowed down as it climbs out of the gravity well, and afaik you will get the same answer-- they are equivalent interpretations of what's actually happening.

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    10. > Is there any chance that we're taking the notion of the equivalence of space and time a little too seriously?

      Too seriously for what? For day-to-day life Newtonian mechanics are perfectly adequate. If you start trying to walk through walls because you think QM gives you a non-zero chance of tunneling through to the other side then you are taking QM too seriously. But if you are seeking ultimate answers, if you are seeking God, then no, there is no such thing as taking the evidence too seriously.

      > Is there some kind of way to factor out the observer-dependence of relativity and calculate some function that quantifies "spacetime curvature" across some kind of neutral background

      Yes. This is called the metric tensor. That's the *whole point* of relativity, to provide an observer-independent description of reality. But that observer-independent description requires a unified spacetime.

      > You could say that light travels at different speeds in different places.

      You could say that, but you'd be wrong. Light doesn't travel at all.

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    11. @Ron
      > Too seriously for what? For day-to-day life Newtonian mechanics are perfectly adequate.

      I'm talking about the idea of 4-dimensional spacetime, which is a mathematical model that has proven useful with respect to relativity, but is still just a model --not reality itself. However, it seems to be causing people to be surprised by the fact that time isn't the same as space. Roughly a century ago, nobody was surprised that time isn't space. So maybe this model is being taken too literally.

      > But if you are seeking ultimate answers, if you are seeking God, then no, there is no such thing as taking the evidence too seriously.

      I suppose you're alluding to the evidence that supports relativity. I never said anything that's in conflict with that. But, in a philosophy of science sense, no amount of measurements can prove that a mathematical model is equal to reality. We can only ever know reality out to a certain number of significant digits.

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    12. @Ron
      I watched a really excellent video course in the last week or so. It covered particle physics. What physicists have been able to learn about particles and fields is very impressive. I attribute this to the relative ease of studying them. Imagine how much more we might know about gravity if you could make gravitational interactions take place in front of a detector.

      One thing that struck me as interesting is the fact that the LHC, afaik, is getting close to the biggest particle accelerator we can build. And it just happens to be about the right order of magnitude to capture the Higgs particle, and apparently nothing beyond it. So it is just the right size to wrap up the Standard Model and put a bow on it. Is this coincidence? Is there some subtle connection between the mass range of the Standard Model and the mass range of particle accelerators? Or maybe there is a lot more to see at higher energies and the boundary is a bit of an illusion.

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    13. > it seems to be causing people to be surprised by the fact that time isn't the same as space

      But time *is* the same as space. *That* is the surprise. And the enduring mystery is, if time is the same as space (and it is, as far as we can tell) why can we move freely through space but not through time?

      > in a philosophy of science sense, no amount of measurements can prove that a mathematical model is equal to reality.

      That's right. That's why I have been taking pains to note over and over that even the idea that objective reality exists is a hypothesis, and one that will turn out to be wrong. Relativity gives us the first hint that it's wrong. But when we get to quantum mechanics (and I'm working on the first part of that right now) we will see that the objective reality hypothesis is *completely* wrong, utterly unsalvageable, except as a Newtonian-style approximation.

      > So it is just the right size to wrap up the Standard Model and put a bow on it. Is this coincidence?

      That is a more complicated question to answer than you might imagine because there are politics involved. The thing I will say is we can't "put a bow" on the Standard Model until we reconcile QFT and GR. Until we do that we know with certainty that at least one of those theories must be wrong. It's almost certainly GR, but until we actually find a quantum theory of gravity the jury remains out on the Standard Model.

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    14. > The thing I will say is we can't "put a bow" on the Standard Model until we reconcile QFT and GR.

      Unifying QFT and GR would be a fantastic achievement, for sure, but I think that's going beyond the scope of the Standard Model of particle physics. Unifying GFT and GR is like the holy grail of physics as far as I can tell. Whoever solves that will be more famous than Einstein. I'm doubtful that that problem will ever be solved, because we don't have the data. String theory is like a hail mary pass, it's like "let's see if we can solve this with just math." It seems like the outcome of that project is like an AI model that's overtrained.

      But yeah, there are many gaps in the Standard Model, but all of the predicted particles have been seen. I think the gist of what Steven Pollock said in the course, it's about as complete as any theory has ever been. It doesn't explain the particle masses; the masses are just inputs for the most part. But Newton never claimed that his theory explained the mass of the moon.

      The Standard Model particles, with the exception of the neutrino, are relatively easy to study, because you can start up the LHC and then it performs 1.5 billion collisions per second in a small volume of space where you can pack in as much instrumentation as you want. The experiments are so well-behaved.

      > But time *is* the same as space. *That* is the surprise. And the enduring mystery is, if time is the same as space (and it is, as far as we can tell) why can we move freely through space but not through time?

      You just stated the huge problem in the time-is-space argument. I certainly don't have a command of the math in relativity, but I'm pretty sure that the justification for time-is-space is the way that you can draw cute 4-dimensional vectors and it makes lovely equations. But time can't be space. I can move in only the y-dimension and not the x and z dimensions. But for some reason, moving in space requires also moving in time (talking about objects with mass). You also just stated one of the big differences.

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    15. Ok. Here's my completely-intuitionistic explanation for why time looks like space.

      It's because there's no way to measure time *per se.* We measure time by measuring distance. In a light clock, you measure how long it takes light to travel a known distance. A quartz crystal vibrates, i.e. moves in space. The kinds of clocks that use more technical aspects of QM I should avoid talking about to not embarrass myself. But luckily, I think Einstein stated that a light clock is equivalent to any other clock, which makes things easier.

      So what does a light clock directly measure? I think you could say that it measures something like the ratio of distance to the speed of light. That would give you units of time (I think). Maybe it's the unit that AI Leonard Susskind was talking about? But anyway, "measuring" time always involves measuring a distance.

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    16. > I think that [Unifying QFT and GR] is going beyond the scope of the Standard Model of particle physics.

      Of course it is. That's the whole point.

      > It doesn't explain the particle masses

      It's possible that not everything has an explanation, or that the explanations exist but are inaccessible to us for some fundamental reason.

      > for some reason, moving in space requires also moving in time

      Right. And that actually *does* have an explanation: your motion through space is not independent of your motion through time. You are always moving through spacetime at the "speed of light". But you can change the *direction* of your motion so that some of that velocity vector is in the space direction. That's why clocks slow down when they move.

      > We measure time by measuring distance.

      No, we measure time with clocks. Yes, all clocks involve some kind of moving/oscillating component, but you don't have to measure any distances.

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    17. > That's right. That's why I have been taking pains to note over and over that even the idea that objective reality exists is a hypothesis, and one that will turn out to be wrong. Relativity gives us the first hint that it's wrong. But when we get to quantum mechanics (and I'm working on the first part of that right now)...

      I think I misunderstood what you meant by that originally. I thought that by "objective reality exists" you meant that something exists outside the mind of the observer that different people can agree on. Like, whatever is the antithesis of epistemological solipsism. The idea that something exists independently of my own mind can't be tested and so it has to be an axiom, otherwise coming up with theories is pointless because my reality is not your reality and whatever theories I make up based on my reality are not even worth telling anyone about because they only apply to me.

      What you actually meant seems to be kind of like the assumptions of classical physics.

      It seems like some of the discussions probably could have been shortened if I had known what definitions you were using.

      > we will see that the objective reality hypothesis is *completely* wrong, utterly unsalvageable,

      You could always get out of jury duty if you tell the court that this is your worldview.

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    18. You posted another comment as a new thread but it looked like you meant to post it here in this one so I'm going to reply to it here:

      > If you accelerate an object to near the speed of light, you would see the object's temperature decrease as the particles that make up the object slow down relative to each other.

      You have to be very careful when applying intuitions to relativistic systems. Temperature is not just a straightforward mapping of particle velocities to a single number (if you've had chemistry training you really should know this). There is a whole field of relativistic thermodynamics with its own furry math. But here is an example of how applying simple intuitions will lead you astray: if it were true that relativistic time dilation led to a straightforward result of relativistic temperature reduction, this would lead to a relativistic decrease in entropy, which would violate the Second Law. This is a "paradox" akin to the twin paradox. It's a conclusion based on false tacit assumptions built in to the intuitions.

      > I thought that by "objective reality exists" you meant that something exists outside the mind of the observer that different people can agree on.

      It's not just the existence of *something*, it is the existence of something *that corresponds to the thing people agree on*, i.e. people agree about chairs because there actually are chairs and anyone who denies the existence of chairs is objectively wrong. Contrast that with the reason people agree that the moving snakes illusion is moving.

      > What you actually meant seems to be kind of like the assumptions of classical physics.

      Yes, that's where the ORH generally leads to. But it doesn't have to end there.

      > It seems like some of the discussions probably could have been shortened if I had known what definitions you were using.

      I really don't know how I could have made it any clearer than this.

      >> we will see that the objective reality hypothesis is *completely* wrong, utterly unsalvageable,

      > You could always get out of jury duty if you tell the court that this is your worldview.

      I have no trouble getting out of jury duty. Attorneys fear me.

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    19. > You posted another comment as a new thread but it looked like you meant to post it here in this one

      You are correct. I think I may have had different intentions when I started it than where it ended up going.

      I was in the middle of responding to all the points, but I accidentally pressed the wrong key combination and I lost it. Pretty annoying.

      Actually, that might be fixable from a browser extension. You can just autosave the comment-in-progress to localStorage.

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  9. I have a lot more formal education in chemistry than physics. In chemistry, the rate of reactions always has a dependence on temperature. That's because, in order for reactions to occur, particles have to physically move, and temperature is a concept that aggregates the speed of many particles relative to each other. It's not a perfect analogy, but the first way that "changing the rate of the passage of time" made sense to me was to think of it in terms of reaction kinetics. Like how you can slow down the growth of mold by putting something in the refrigerator. Kind of like slowing down the "mold clock".

    > You are always moving through spacetime at the "speed of light".

    I'm aware of this idea. But I'm suspicious as to whether "moving through time" as if it was just another dimension of space is actually the best way to conceptualize what's happening. Because going down that road seems to lead to paradoxes that maybe are just artifacts of this story.

    If you accelerate an object to near the speed of light, you would see the object's temperature decrease as the particles that make up the object slow down relative to each other. I wonder where it would lead if you substituted temperature for "moving through time as if it's a distance." The temperature captures the idea that "time" isn't something that you "move through" at a particular speed. What is actually moving are all the particles that make up the object, including e.g. the photons that carry the electromagnetic force inside and between atoms.

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