Don Geddis pointed out a problem with my relativity animation:
... with either Linda or Ralph stationary, you have the angled light hitting the end clock at "the same moment" as the light pulse that just goes straight up and down. That's not what would happen. If light was going at a constant speed, the light on the angled path would need to take longer to reach the end point.That sounds plausible, but it's wrong. The light that moves along the angled path must arrive at the same moment as the light that moves along the vertical path. Why? Because it is literally the same light just viewed from two different points of view, what in the trade are called "frames of reference".
Now, there is a different experiment that we could imagine where Ralph and Linda each send out two flashes of light. One flash, as before, travels vertically in their frame of reference, and the other is launched at an angle so that its trajectory traces out the same path as the light that is vertical in the other's frame. It seems plausible to say that that light would not arrive "at the same moment" because it is traveling along a longer path. And it also seems plausible to say that therefore the other light must also "not arrive at the same moment" because those two beams are tracing out the same path in space. But this is wrong, and the way in which is it wrong is the whole point of this thought experiment! Here is a hint: think about how you would actually have to modify the experimental setup in order to demonstrate that Ralph's (or Linda's) angled beam did not arrive "at the same moment" as his (or her) vertical one. (I'm going to leave that as an exercise for now.)
Nevertheless, there is indeed a problem with this animation: it is showing the light moving as if it were a classical object like a baseball, and so it appears to be moving at different speeds. But that is not possible with light. Light is only ever seen to move at one speed, namely 186,000 miles per second, a speed universally denoted by the letter C. So how can something moving at the same speed cover different distances in the same amount of time? Obviously it can't. Something has got to give.
The "thing that gives" in this example is, as noted in the first part of this two-part episode, the clocks. Ralph and Linda agree that each of their clocks reads two time units when the light returns, but they don't agree on how far the light traveled. If we can't change the speed the only thing left is the time. Ralph thinks Linda's clock is wrong and Linda thinks Ralph's clock is wrong. Each sees the other's clock as reading less than it should, i.e. each sees the other's clock as running slow. And the reason for that is that each one sees the other's clock as moving.
I tried to extend the animation to illustrate this more directly but it turns out to be really hard. The problem is that the point I actually want to make here has to do with the fact that it is impossible to measure the one-way speed of light. Young-earth creationists try to use this fact (and it is a fact) to explain how we can see stars and galaxies further than 6000 light years away. My goal here is to show why their argument doesn't work. The problem that leaves me with, however, is that I cannot assume that the one-way speed of light is c because that would be begging the question. Because I cannot assume that the one-way speed of light is c, I cannot rely on most of the usual pedagogical tools for explaining relativity because they do assume that the one-way speed of light is c. This assumption (and it is an assumption) is deeply ingrained in the minds of most people because it is the foundation of Einstein's relativity theory. But it is an assumption, not a physical fact. The physical facts are that the round-trip speed of light is c, and the one-way speed of light along any particular trajectory is constant. It seems like you should be able to prove from those facts that the one-way speed must be c, but you can't. It's not true. It is possible to build so-called anisotropic models of light where the one-way speed is faster in one direction and slower in the opposite direction.
Lest you think, as many physicists do, that I am merely entertaining a transparently crackpot theory, the fact that it is fundamentally impossible to measure the one-way speed of light was noted by Einstein himself in his 1905 paper:
[The laws of physics] possess no properties corresponding to the idea of absolute rest. ... the same laws of electrodynamics and optics will be valid for all frames of reference ... We will raise this conjecture ... to the status of a postulate, and also introduce another postulate, which is only apparently irreconcilable with the former, namely, that light is always propagated in empty space with a definite velocity c which is independent of the state of motion of the emitting body. [Emphasis added]
and later:
If at the point A of space there is a clock, an observer at A can determine the time values of events in the immediate proximity of A by finding the positions of the hands which are simultaneous with these events. If there is at the point B of space another clock in all respects resembling the one at A, it is possible for an observer at B to determine the time values of events in the immediate neighborhood of B. But it is not possible without further assumption to compare, in respect of time, an event at A with an event at B. We have so far defined only an “A time” and a “B time.” We have not defined a common “time” for A and B, for the latter cannot be defined at all unless we establish by definition that the “time” required by light to travel from A to B equals the “time” it requires to travel from B to A. [Emphasis added.](BTW, that quote is a huge hint for the exercise above.)
So the constant speed of light is a postulate, an assumption, exactly like taking the sun to be the center of our solar system. It is not a physical fact, it is just a convention that makes the math easier. And, as we shall see, the fact that it is impossible to measure the one-way speed of light is actually an enormous clue to what is really going on under the hood.
Because we want to specifically avoid the assumption that the one-way speed of light is c, we need to be more precise about what it actually means to assume that "the one-way speed of light along any particular trajectory is constant". As before, we turn to Einstein:
... light is always propagated in empty space with a definite velocity ... which is independent of the state of motion of the emitting body.There is a lot of subtlety packed into those 23 words, but there are two main things to notice. First, the velocity is "independent of the state of motion of the emitting body". That is really the crux of what it means for the speed of light to be the same for all observers. We'll get back to that in more detail later.
The second thing to notice is that we're talking about light propagating in empty space i.e. in a vacuum. Note that we can never actually see light moving in a vacuum. The only thing we can actually see is light that arrives at some kind of sensor -- a camera, or our eyes. When light is moving in a vacuum, by definition there can't be anything there to sense it. So the only things we can actually measure when light moves through a vacuum is the time and place the light was emitted, and the time and place it arrived. From this we can infer a trajectory and a speed, but -- again by definition -- we cannot measure them. The only way to "see" light actually move is to put some physical objects along its path, like dust particles. Here is an extraordinary video clip that lets us "see" light move using this technique.
Actually there are two different clips with two different viewing angles. In the first clip (at the 1:10 mark) the camera is viewing the light perpendicular to its motion. In the second (at 1:33) the camera angle is oblique, and the light appears to move faster while moving towards the camera and slower while moving away, which is a visceral illustration of anisotropic light. You can, of course, explain (or, as a creationist would say, "explain away") this observation using the standard assumption. But you can also explain the fact that light is appearing to move at different speeds in different directions by hypothesizing that it actually is moving at different speeds in different directions. No experiment can disprove this. (But note that you then have to explain -- or "explain away" why the light appears to move at the same speed in both directions when "viewed" at 90 degrees!)
It is worth watching the entire video to see the details of how these clips were made. Around the 23 minute mark you will find the standard explanation of why the light appears to move at different speeds when viewed from an oblique angle: you are not actually seeing the light move. What you are seeing is light that has traveled from the source, reflected off dust particles in the air, and then traveled to the camera. What the camera is measuring is the time it takes the light to traverse that entire path, not just the first segment.
In philosophy-speak, the one-way speed of light being c works epistemologically but not ontologically. It makes the math work, but if you want to understand what is actually going on it really ought to bother you that there is no experiment you can do that will allow you to demonstrate that light moves at the same speed in all directions. And actually, the fact that it is impossible to rule out anisotropic models experimentally, the fact that it is fundamentally impossible to measure the one-way speed of light, is actually a Big Clue that there is something else going on under the hood. What is it?
Here is a hint: notice that it is also possible to make anisotropic models of time. We can show experimentally that two clocks sitting next to each other remain synchronized, but how do we know that the length of one tick is the same as the next? Maybe clocks actually tick at different rates when it is Tuesday in New York, but because all clocks are equally affected, including all of the physical and biological processes that cause us to have a subjective experience of time passing, there is no way to tell. That seems silly, but there is no experiment you can do that will rule it out. And this, too, is a clue.
(In point of actual fact, clocks do tick at different rates depending on the circumstances! It is only clocks that are not moving or accelerating relative to each other that will remain in sync!)
So let's go back to basics: what does it actually mean for the speed of light to be the same in all reference frames in terms of things we can actually observe? Here again, Einstein provides the answer, or at least the foundation:
[A]ll our judgments in which time plays a part are always judgments of simultaneous events. If, for instance, I say, “That train arrives here at 7 o’clock,” I mean something like this: “The pointing of the small hand of my watch to 7 and the arrival of the train are simultaneous events.”Notice that for two events to be considered simultaneous they have to be adjacent not only in time but also in space. (Another hint!) Two things that happen in the same place and at the same time are "simultaneous". You can't assume anything about events that happen in different locations, and indeed it will turn out that different observers will have legitimate disagreements about whether or not two distant events are simultaneous or not.
In the experiment with Linda and Ralph there are three different sets of simultaneous events:
E1. Ralph and Linda's light sources flash and their clocks start. This is the reason I drew Ralph's train upside-down, to emphasize the fact that the two light sources are next to each other when they flash.
L1. Linda's light arrives back at Linda's clock and her clock stops and registers a result (2 time units).
R1. Ralph's light arrives back at Ralph's clock and his clock stops and registers a result (also 2 time units).
Note that L1 and R1 are not simultaneous because they do not happen in the same place. In the animation they appear to happen at the same time, but this is just happenstance because I wanted to highlight the symmetry between Linda and Ralph's perspectives. Linda and Ralph disagree on the light path lengths -- they each see the other's light path as longer than their own. But if we assume that the speed of light is the same everywhere, then there is only one possible conclusion that each of them can come to: the actual time that it took the other's light to return to the (moving) clock was actually longer than the 2 time units that clock reported. The moving clocks are running slow!
We can quantify this. To keep things simple let's assume that the relative speed between the two train cars is such that the longer light paths appear to be at 45 degree angles. In other words, Ralph sees Linda's light move at a 45-degree angle and Linda sees Ralph's light move at a 45-degree angle. Now, the phrases "Ralph sees Linda's light move" and "Linda sees Ralph's light move" should be setting off alarm bells in your head because I spent the first half of this post explaining that it is not possible to see light move (notwithstanding the existence of videos purporting to show light moving). So let me be more precise: let us change the experimental setup in the way alluded to in the exercise above: both Linda and Ralph set up a second mirror so that they each have a second beam of light that moves at a 45-degree angle in their train car. Those beams will not return to the light source, they will land two distance units away. To be precise (which we have to be because we already know that Linda and Ralph disagree about lengths) Ralph's beam will land two distance units away as measured by Ralph in his train car, and Linda's 45-degree beam will land two distance units away as measured by Linda in her train car.
We now have two more events:
R2: Ralph's 45-degree light beam lands on the floor of Ralph's train.
L2: Linda's 45-degree light beam lands on the floor of Linda's train.
Now adjust the relative speed of the trains so that L1 and R2 are simultaneous events, i.e. both 45-degree-angle beams land at the exact instant that the places they land are adjacent as the trains pass each other. By symmetry, R1 and L2 must also be simultaneous events. With some elementary geometry you can figure out that the speed required for this is √2/2 or about 0.7c, but the exact value doesn't really matter. What matters is that this speed is less than c. The reason is simple geometry: the trains are traveling along the legs of two right triangles while the diagonal light is traveling along the hypotenuses of those same triangles, so the trains will always have to cover less distance than the light in order to arrive at the same place at the same time.
As I mentioned earlier, I tried to extend the animation to illustrate all this, but that turns out to be really hard. I spent a couple of hours with ChatGPT and was not able to get it to do the right thing, so I'm probably going to have to code it up myself. (If there are any animators out there who want to give it a shot I'd be willing to pay you for your time!) The reason it's hard is that the animation as it stands sweeps some details under the rug in the interest of highlighting the important parts while trying to keep things simple and intuitive. Two details that I've swept under the rug are Lorentz contraction and the relativity of simultaneity. When you switch perspectives in the current animation, the train cars appear to remain the same length and the clocks advance at the same rate. (These distortions are analogous to the ones you get with a Mercator projection.)
Trying to add the 45-degree beams reveals some of those distortions, so it's actually impossible to simply add those to the current animation. You have to get rid of the distortions in order to make it all work, which means that you have to put in Lorentz contraction and time dilation, and then it all gets really hairy and I have not yet been able to make it work. Sorry. But all that technical detail detracts from the point I really want to make here which is simply that moving clocks appear to run slow, and this is a straightforward consequence of disagreement over the length of the path that light took to travel between two events.
There is one detail that does matter, though, and that is the fact that to get an apparent path of light moving at a 45-degree angle you do not have to travel at the speed of light, but only about 7/10 of the speed of light. This is counterintuitive at first, but becomes pretty straightforward when you start to think of it in terms of geometry: the light always appears to travel on the hypotenuses of triangles and the trains always move along the legs, and so the distance covered by the train is always less than the distance covered by the light. Let that really sink because what I am about to tell you next is going to blow your mind even though it will be obviously true: the distance covered by the train is always less than the distance covered by the light is a fact of geometry, and so it must remain true NO MATTER HOW FAST THE TRAINS ARE MOVING!
This makes most people's heads explode when they first hear it because another truism that has been instilled into them is that it is impossible for massive objects (like trains) to travel faster than light, and this is true. If you race light, the light will always win. But this is not some kind of arbitrary "cosmic speed limit", it is a logical consequence, a geometric consequence, of the fact that the speed of light is the same for all observers. If you try to race light in a straight line you will always lose. But if the light is reflected and so takes a path that is not a straight line, you can always get to the finish line at the same time (or sooner) no matter how far away it is, and you always can do that by moving slower than light.
And here is the final mind-blowing fact: no matter how far away the finish line is, the time it will take you to get there in the setup we've described above will always be the same according to the clock on your train car: two time units. Again, the exact number doesn't really matter. What matters is that it's more than zero. So: in an arbitrarily short amount of time as measured by a clock on your train car (as long as it's more than zero) you can traverse an arbitrarily long distance. Want to go to the Andromeda Galaxy in one second? No problem. Just hit the gas and accelerate to 0.99999999999999999999999999999c. (That is actually the right answer, more or less, at least if ChatGPT did the math right. There are twenty-nine 9's there.)
But wait, you say, that's obviously impossible because I would be traveling more than 186,000 miles in a second! Well, that's true, but remember that not only do moving observers disagree on when "now" is, they also disagree on where "here" is, and so they also disagree on where "there" is. When you move close to the speed of light, everything around you in the direction of your motion appears to get shorter (that's the Lorentz contraction). So from the point of view of someone back on earth, it takes you 2.5 million years to get to cover the 2.5 million light years to Andromeda. But from your point of view, the distance to Andromeda shrinks so that you can cover it in one second according to your clock (which is running very, very slow according to observers on earth).
If we extend this to a two-way round trip we get the so-called "twin paradox": if you can get to Andromeda in one second (according to your clock) then you can also get back in one second (again, according to your clock). So if you actually do this you will be two seconds older but earth will be five million years older. Of course, actually carrying out this experiment with a human involves a few practical difficulties, like the fact that accelerating yourself to such speeds would require vastly more energy than in all the atomic bombs on earth and decompose the atoms in your body into their subatomic constituents many times over.
But there is something that can make such a round trip without any trouble at all: light. What would it look like to go to Alpha Centauri and back not just close to the speed of light but at the speed of light? This requires some pretty significant suspension of disbelief because this is not actually possible even in theory. It is worth reiterating why this is the case: no matter how much distance you cover in a finite amount of time, your arrival will still be simultaneous with that of a light beam that reflected off a mirror, and so you will have moved slower than that light. To move at the speed of light you have to travel an infinite distance in a finite amount of time as measured by your clock.
But that can't be right because light doesn't cover an infinite distance in a finite amount of time! It moves at a finite speed: 186,000 miles per second. Yes, that's right. But remember the qualification: you have to travel an infinite distance in a finite amount of time as measured by your clock. To transfer this to a chunk of light you would have to reckon the time as measured by a clock moving at the speed of light. It is not possible for a clock to move at the speed of light, but if it could, what would happen? Well, as it got closer and closer to the speed of light, it would run slower and slower until, at the speed of light, it would stop altogether. At the same time (no pun intended) the Lorentz contraction would shrink the distance between your start and end points down to zero. At that point your speed from your perspective would be zero divided by zero.
And this is the reason that it is impossible to measure the one-way speed of light. It is not merely physically impossible, it is mathematically nonsensical! It is literally zero divided by zero.
So why can we measure the two-way speed of light? Why does time pass when light reflects? If both the outgoing and reflected beam of light think that their origin and destination are at the same place and time, how can time elapse at all?
To answer this it is best to go back to a physically possible situation with a physical clock moving at close to but not quite the speed of light, making the round-trip to alpha centauri in a short but still finite period of time from its perspective. Actually, it is best to imagine two such clocks, one going to Alpha Centauri and the other coming back so we don't have to deal with acceleration and general relativity. The motion of the clocks is arranged so that they pass each other at Alpha Centauri, at which point the inbound clock is set to the same time as the outbound clock. Let's say that each leg takes one second as measured by these clocks, so the total round-trip time is measured as two seconds, during which time five million years will have passed on earth.
When did those five million years "happen" from the perspective of the clocks?
The (mind-blowing) answer is: they didn't! If you actually work this out (and I'm not going to do that because this post is already too long) what you will find is that the apparent passage of time on earth can be ascribed entirely to the disagreement over when "now" is from the two perspectives of the two clocks. For the outbound clock, "now" on earth is in the past. For the inbound clock, "now" on earth is in the future. And the difference is exactly ... five million years (minus two seconds)!
From the "perspective" of light, time never "passes". What happens instead is that "now" changes. But those changes "happen" instantaneously every time the light is reflected by something and changes direction and hence "perspective".
And it turns out that this is what happens with clocks too! Clocks are collections of atoms. Atoms interact with each other mainly through the electrons in their outer shells, and those interactions are electromagnetic ones. In other words, there are photons -- light -- going back and forth between atoms. Every time that "happens" (I have to put "happens" in scare quotes here because the whole idea of "things happening" is being jettisoned here) there is a change in perspective that "ratchets that atom up to a new now" (the English language is up against its conceptual limits here). And, of course, it's not just clocks. Anything made of atoms (which is to say, everything) works this way.
We will see all this again when we get to quantum mechanics, which we will have to do before we can answer the obvious question: if time doesn't actually pass, if things don't actually happen, why does it appear that they do?
I'll leave you with just one parting thought: the fact that it is impossible to measure the one-way speed of light can be explained in two different ways. One, as I've done above, is to point out that the whole concept of the "one-way speed of light" is mathematical nonsense, quite literally zero divided by zero. But there is also a practical way to understand it: think about what it would take to make this measurement. You would need two clocks in two different locations, and you would need to measure that time that light left one location and the time it arrived at the other. To do that you would have to make sure that the two clocks were synchronized, and there is no way to do that without assuming that the one-way speed of light is a constant. But notice what happens if you don't make this assumption: not only is it impossible to measure the one-way speed of light, it is impossible to measure the one-way speed of anything for the exact same reason: you can't synchronize your clocks unless you assume the one-way speed of light! For slow-moving objects you can get very close, but there will always be an uncertainty corresponding exactly to your uncertainty about the one-way speed of light. We will see this kind of fundamental "uncertainty principle" again as well when we get to quantum mechanics.
This post seems clearer (to me), but I'm a bit confused about your objection to my concern on the previous post. You now say: "Because it is literally the same light just viewed from two different points of view ... there is a different experiment that we could imagine where Ralph and Linda each send out two flashes of light. One flash, as before, travels vertically in their frame of reference, and the other is launched at an angle so that its trajectory traces out the same path as the light that is vertical in the other's frame."
ReplyDeleteBut that's not a "different" experiment. That's exactly what your previous animation already shows! When I choose "Linda stationary", and I look ONLY at the purple lines, what I already see are exactly the TWO different flashes of light: a solid purple line within Linda's train, and a dashed purple line within Ralph's train. They both finish, at 2:00 -- but (and here's the important point) at two different physical locations. They STARTED co-located, but at the end of the experiment, they are no longer co-located.
My previous complaint was that both of the TWO light flashes, in the animation, appeared to take the exact same amount of time to complete their journey in the animation -- but no observer anywhere could possibly observe such a thing. So I found that misleading.
You seem to already understand and agree with this, because later you say: "Note that L1 and R1 are not simultaneous because they do not happen in the same place. In the animation they appear to happen at the same time, but this is just happenstance." It is exactly the (misleading) "happenstance" that I was complaining about in the previous post.
I guess it's not important, but I don't understand what you thought that I was wrong about. Presumably there was some misunderstanding, and you thought I had been saying something differently than I intended to say.
> But that's not a "different" experiment.
DeleteIt is a different experiment. It just seems the same to you because you have deeply internalized the idea of viewing things from different reference frames into your thoughts. The original experiment only has two physical light flashes. The second experiment has four, two in each train. Note that to actually measure the travel time of the additional diagonal flashes you have to add two clocks, one on each train.
> no observer anywhere could possibly observe such a thing
That's not true. A stationary observer on the ground seeing each train moving at the same speed in opposite directions would observe both flashes arriving at the same time. But of course that in no way implies that these events "really happened" at the same time.
> "The original experiment only has two physical light flashes."
DeleteRight. Exactly. The original experiment has TWO light flashes.
But in your criticism at the top of this very post, you instead write: "The light that moves along the angled path must arrive at the same moment as the light that moves along the vertical path. ... Because it is literally the same light just viewed from two different points of view."
That's not a valid criticism of my complaint. It isn't "literally the same light". I was referring to the TWO light flashes. They AREN'T "just viewed from two different points of view." There are actually two different flashes of light.
My complaint (on the last post) was that the two DIFFERENT flashes of light, appear to arrive at the same moment. ("Happenstance".) I suggested that was misleading to people trying to learn about Relativity. (You, instead, at the top of this post, said that my description was "wrong". I don't think that it is.)
> "same speed in opposite directions"
I was talking specifically about any observer that sees Linda as stationary. In that setup, your visualization shows both (of the two!) light flashes arriving at the same time. My point (in the last post) was that no observer could see BOTH Linda being stationary, and ALSO both flashes arrive at the same time. (But that's what your visualization demonstrates.)
It's possible that I misunderstood what you meant by "the angled light". In the original experiment there are only two flashes, and they both take vertical tracks in the frame of the train car that they originated in. So "the angled light" can only mean the light that *appears* to take an angled track from the frame of the other train car. And that light is literally the same light that takes a vertical track from the frame of the car that the flash originated in.
DeleteThe problem is that "the angled light" in your original comment is ambiguous. There are two angled paths and two vertical paths. The purple angled path (how Linda sees Ralph's light) arrives at the same instant as the green vertical path (how Ralph sees Ralph's light) no matter what because it is, as I said, literally the same light. And the same goes for the green angled path and the purple vertical path.
You are correct that the animation shows both arrival events as being apparently simultaneous in all three reference frames, and that is indeed wrong, but I addressed that in this post.
> "Maybe clocks actually tick at different rates when it is Tuesday in New York, but because all clocks are equally affected, including all of the physical and biological processes that cause us to have a subjective experience of time passing, there is no way to tell. That seems silly, but there is no experiment you can do that will rule it out."
ReplyDeleteI really like this analogy, and find it quite useful. "Time passing" allows for change, but maybe it isn't even meaningful to wonder whether the "rate" of time passing might vary. If no possible experiment could distinguish it ... what utility does such a concept have? There would have to be some larger multiverse that had a different clock, where we could somehow see that our clocks weren't stable compared to the reference clock in the other universe. But we don't have any such thing (and even if we did -- why would the other clock be the "right" one?) ... so if there's nothing to compare our clock rates to, then is the question of whether the rates vary even a meaningful question?
> "But it is an assumption, not a physical fact. The physical facts are that the round-trip speed of light is c, and the one-way speed of light along any particular trajectory is constant. It seems like you should be able to prove from those facts that the one-way speed must be c, but you can't. It's not true."
I prefer a different response to this observation. Speed is just distance divided by time, right? But both distance measurements and time measurements actually come down to the constant speed of light as well. Like your time example ... what would it actually mean, if light traveled at different speeds in different directions? No experiment would yield any different data. So what is the utility of a concept that has no consequences?
I prefer to think of it as: it is the speed of light itself which determines "distance". At the end of the day, all you ACTUALLY have are space-time "events" (things in the same place, at the same moment). For things that happen in different places or at different times, we can ask about the "distance" (in either space or time) between this event and that event. But the ONLY way to measure that distance ... eventually comes down to the speed of light again.
Which suggests that it isn't even meaningful to ask whether light travels at different speeds in different directions. Light is the distance metric itself, so however long the round-trip time is ... THAT is the actual thing that determines what we conventionally call "distance" (in either space or time).
The universe is just a web of disconnected space-time events; light (or, more generally, "causality") is what orders them and determines "distance" in space or time. There is no other notion of "distance" that would be possible to compare to what you get from light (just like your time example with clocks).
Which implies that the one-way speed of light actually IS the constant c, essentially by definition. Because it is light (causality) that determines speed (distance, time), so it isn't even theoretically possible for the one-way speed of light to be different than the round-trip speed.
Yes, all of that is more or less exactly right. The only thing that's not quite right is the causality. Light is not what orders events, entanglement is. We'll get to that.
DeleteThere is a nice quote that I got from an AI video of Leonard Suskind (not sure what the quote's actual provenance is): The speed of light is not a speed, it's a conversion factor between space and time.
@Ron
DeleteIs it fair to say that some of the stuff you write here isn't consensus physics, but rather your opinion on issues that are unresolved? Just checking.
It depends on what you mean by "here". Do you mean this particular post? The comments? The whole seeking-god-in-science series? The blog in general? The latter is obviously chock-full of my opinions. The series so far contains a few controversial claims, like that consciousness is an illusion, but for the most part I have been sticking to mainstream consensus science. This post in particular is 100% non-controversial as far as the science goes, but you could probably find people with credentials who might give some pushback on the philosophical implications.
DeleteBut here is an actual physicist weighing in on the philosophy. (Shots in the Quark is generally an excellent channel. I recommend it.)
@Ron
DeleteI'd like to hear more about entanglement and the role it plays in ordering events. I can't find a reference on it, but that could just be a web searchability problem.
I watched the video. I agree that the possibility of continuing to exist eternally in "time prime" has a comforting sound to it. It's basically the atheistic version of the afterlife.
It seems like there is a tendency to exaggerate the importance of relativity as it relates to time. The standard viewpoint as to whether Einstein's and Newton's theories are in conflict with each other is no, because the difference between Einstein's and Newton's theories in most cases is so extremely tiny that you should go with the one that's easier to calculate, which in most cases is Newton. However, when talking more philosophically, some physicists place a great deal of importance in this difference, even to say that a person who is dead could still be alive, because Einstein showed that there's no universal "now" and time isn't even a real thing. I think you can be quantitative about this issue, assuming everyone that plays a part is on Earth (a safe assumption). Light takes 0.134 seconds to encircle the Earth, if you assume that it's traveling in a vacuum (which isn't a good assumption). But, anyway, you could take the effective speed of light and create a meaningful "now" that takes into account delays due to the speed of light. That also lets you derive an upper bound on the uncertainty in the ordering of events.
> I'd like to hear more about entanglement and the role it plays in ordering events.
DeleteYeah, I'm trying really hard to get to that. But if you don't want to wait you can read this.
But that post assumes some background that I haven't provided here yet.
@Don
Delete> I prefer a different response to this observation. Speed is just distance divided by time, right? But both distance measurements and time measurements actually come down to the constant speed of light as well. Like your time example ... what would it actually mean, if light traveled at different speeds in different directions? No experiment would yield any different data. So what is the utility of a concept that has no consequences?
Most of the interactions in ordinary matter are mediated by the electromagnetic force, in other words, photons. The photons are clearly then moving at the speed of light, because they are light. There are other things that happen that involve the other forces, like radioactive decays, but we know that the speed of light isn't about light. It applies equally to gluons, W bosons, and so on. So, basically, any device you could make, using any kind of material or principle to measure time will have the speed of light built into it. No matter how hard you try, there's no way you can remove c from the equation.
I don't see why, in principle, there couldn't be some deeper kind of time that the speed of light exists within and could possibly change relative to. But, since we are beings that are, for all practical purposes, made out of light, we probably can't measure that.
> The photons are clearly then moving at the speed of light, because they are light.
DeleteYes, that seems quite plausible. But it's wrong. (Note that there are two follow-on posts after the linked one.)
@Ron
DeleteThanks for the correction. I have to kick myself for trying to be unnecessarily quantitative.
What matters is that the interactions between particles happen at rates that are proportional to c, and that that is due to something fundamental about how they work.
You're on the right track here, but remember that in natural units, c is 1 and it's dimensionless. So saying that a "rate" is "proportional" to this is vacuous. Everything is proportional to 1. But you are right that this is pointing to a deep truth about how things work.
DeleteThe natural dimensions discussion is a different conversation.
DeleteBut you are right. What I wrote doesn't make sense.
I am talking about interactions between particles on one hand and c on the other hand, so the relationship there isn't straightforward. I could have said that the interactions are mediated by particles that travel at speeds that have to be less than or equal to c. I also wanted to communicate the idea that, even if you magically changed the value of c, the speed of the particles mediating interactions between other particles would change in exact proportion to c. c is kind of like your cpu clock, in that it sets the pace for everything else that happens. But modern cpus have many different clocks, so the analogy is more complicated.
> even if you magically changed the value of c
DeleteThe value of c is 1. 1 light second per second. 1 light year per year. How are you going to magically change that?
Here is an exercise for you. It is a difficult one but I want you to take a serious whack at it before posting any more comments. Is it possible for there to be another physical effect that propagates at a speed other than c which is seen as the same speed for all observers? In other words, can God make a universe with two different kinds of light which "move" at two different (constant) speeds? Here is a hint: think about what a universe like that would imply for the *geometry* of the experiment with Linda and Ralph.
@Ron:
ReplyDelete>So the constant speed of light is a postulate, an assumption,
Didn't you strenuously defend that Science™ doesn't make any assumptions?
>From the "perspective" of light, time never "passes". What happens instead is that "now" changes. But those changes "happen" instantaneously every time the light is reflected by something and changes direction and hence "perspective".
A light ray has no four-velocity. Light has no proper time along its path, so it has no "now." There are no inertial frames that travel at the speed of light.
The scientific method makes no assumptions. Individual hypotheses can make assumptions. But in this particular case, my use of the word "assumption" was ill-advised. I should have said "convention" or something like that. The point is that the one-way speed of light is not a physical fact, not part of objective reality, and that is the reason we can't measure it. It's not a technological limitation, it's a fundamental one.
Delete@Ron
DeleteThere are assumptions/postulates/axioms underlying everything. Acknowledging them is good, because it shows that you are trying to be rigorous.
If c is the one thing we can depend on, then we should really measure all speeds/velocities as fractions of c. I think robot Susskind alluded to this. So 1 km/s would be (3.3 * 10 e-6) * c. And then define distance using c as a basis, time using c as a basis, etc. That might lead to better intuitions.
ReplyDeleteYep. You have just re-discovered natural units.
Delete@Ron
DeleteThat's not the point I was making. This was the original meter (from wikipedia):
> The metre was originally defined in 1791 by the French National Assembly as one ten-millionth of the distance from the equator to the North Pole along a great circle through Paris, setting 10000 km as that quarter of the Earth's polar circumference.
This is the current one:
> From 1983 until 2019, the metre was formally defined as the length of the path travelled by light in vacuum in 1/299792458 of a second. After the 2019 revision of the SI, this definition was rephrased to include the definition of a second in terms of the caesium frequency ΔνCs.
So it's already tied to c (which is good), but it's an obvious retrofit. No one was thinking about the speed of light in 1791, so the conversion factor looks completely random. Also, no one realized that speed is actually more fundamental to the universe than a combination of length and time. I'm sure that fact would have been mind-blowing in 1791 (supposing you could get anyone to take you seriously).
So, we ought to redefine speed (velocity?) as a base unit in terms of c, then redefine any SI units that can be derived from c to make them short and memorable.
> That's not the point I was making.
DeleteYes it is, whether you realize it or not:
> we ought to redefine speed (velocity?) as a base unit in terms of c, then redefine any SI units that can be derived from c to make them short and memorable.
That is exactly what natural units are.
> we ought to redefine speed (velocity?) as a base unit in terms of c, then redefine any SI units that can be derived from c to make them short and memorable.
DeleteMaybe I was unclear. You seem to be focused on the word *redefine*. Yes, the redefinition of the metre as "the length of the path travelled by light in vacuum in 1/299792458 of a second" is redefining the metre.
The important part, though, was the words "short and memorable". Two comments ago, I wrote that the change "might lead to better intuitions." The Kelvin scale was defined to have 0 Kelvin equal to absolute zero. The speed of light is pretty analogous to absolute zero.
I'm not sure, I sense that there may be a taboo against saying "slowing the speed of light", but that is exactly the same thing as slowing down time, because every process by which we might measure time is pegged to the speed of light. It's kind of like slowing the speed of speed.
Having a maximum speed is less convenient than having a minimum temperature, because if you set it up so that c is zero in the new units, then every actual speed will be negative.
So the point of changing the units is to be more intuitive and perhaps simplify calculations by eliminating the need for conversion factors.
@NB: As Ron keeps saying, that's exactly what natural units are. As you noted, the speed of light is a maximum, not a minimum. So you set it to "1", not to "0".
DeleteThe problem is that there's no way for ordinary human-sized measurements (of time or distance) to be "short and memorable", because c is much faster than all the other distances and times that we are used to in our ordinary human experience. You can easily measure distances and times (and thus speeds) in terms of "fractions of c". But they won't be convenient-sized numbers, when you measure things in ordinary human experience. They instead will be tiny tiny little numbers. Like "1/299792458".
But you absolutely can "eliminate the need for conversion factors". As Ron keeps saying, that is EXACTLY what natural units in fact do.
@Don @Ron
DeleteOkay... my mistake about natural units. Sorry for skipping the reading and jumping to conclusions.
@Don
There are ways to deal with units that are inconveniently large or inconveniently small. An Angstrom is 0.1 nanometers.
It wouldn't do the average person much good to impose new units on them, so maybe only scientists would use them. Or maybe it's good enough just to go through the mental exercise and become aware of the fact that every velocity is intrinsically a fraction of c.