tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post9048413155529928624..comments2024-03-18T17:28:44.693-07:00Comments on Rondam Ramblings: My Dinner with ErikRonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comBlogger47125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-66885390202293238212009-07-06T16:16:57.093-07:002009-07-06T16:16:57.093-07:00In and around 1999, when the biggest blow-ups happ...In and around 1999, when the biggest blow-ups happened on c.l.l, I was friends with Erik and some of his targets. I can tell you it was excruciatingly painful to watch him attack people that I had known for a long time, people that I valued and cherished as friends, as I did him. I felt like a parent watching two of my children fighting and tearing at each other. I tried to heal some of it e40https://www.blogger.com/profile/09239746509534807419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-28084664868854242462009-07-04T00:50:36.196-07:002009-07-04T00:50:36.196-07:00> I think there are many readers both past and ...> I think there are many readers both past and future that would<br />> much rather he stayed and you just dropped your inquisition and<br />> left him alone. Ie live and let live. Let people be who they are.<br /><br />For what it's worth, I followed cll for years, and I despised Erik's<br />inflammatory invective.<br /><br />I had a few modest interactions with him, and my rblaahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08067136311466058366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-51093713661809055362009-07-02T16:10:13.554-07:002009-07-02T16:10:13.554-07:00> this was actually discussed at some length ba...> this was actually discussed at some length back in the day<br /><br />If you do go back and look at this, note that a lot of the original messages seem to be missing from Google's archive (which IMO is a major disaster if all that data is really gone for good).Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-54512680081258324322009-07-02T15:51:36.935-07:002009-07-02T15:51:36.935-07:00> I was actually quoting Erik from that post
Y...> I was actually quoting Erik from that post<br /><br />Yes, I know. That's why I understand that you didn't intend it to be an attack. But Erik had an excellent command of the English language, and a lot of people (not just me) pointing out the subtle nuances of his choice of words. He cannot have been unaware of the implication.<br /><br />> Your experience is different.<br /><Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-35142402787097443432009-07-02T15:15:09.544-07:002009-07-02T15:15:09.544-07:00Oh, "the likes of you"... I was actually...Oh, "the likes of you"... I was actually quoting Erik from that post, I clearly see what you mean about this. No, I am Norwegian, as was Erik, but both of us have/had a good grasp of English (if I say so myself). You may have noted my British English spelling a bit earlier, although I currently live in the US.<br /><br />As said, I cannot speak for Erik, and of course I am not saying Ms. Lene Jensenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08324342355284298433noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-789570910315478542009-07-02T14:49:10.980-07:002009-07-02T14:49:10.980-07:00> First: most of the stuff where he admitted to...> First: most of the stuff where he admitted to being wrong are IRC logs in Norwegian.<br /><br />Ah. I'm going to guess then that you are not a native English speaker. In which case, it is understandable that you may not have been aware that...<br /><br />> I did not take pot shots at you; if I did, can you point it out to me where I did it?<br /><br />In idiomatic English, the Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-88337210184155204612009-07-02T14:32:53.687-07:002009-07-02T14:32:53.687-07:00First: most of the stuff where he admitted to bein...First: most of the stuff where he admitted to being wrong are IRC logs in Norwegian. I don't think you would get much out of those. I also have logs from about 15 years back, it's almost impossible for me to find it at this point. As I said, I tried to avoid discussing with him if I could.<br /><br />"The likes of you". From what I gathered from reading a couple of your posts onMs. Lene Jensenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08324342355284298433noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-67756568297085379912009-07-02T13:55:14.186-07:002009-07-02T13:55:14.186-07:00> if I could back my arguments with facts, he W...> if I could back my arguments with facts, he WOULD CHANGE HIS MIND<br /><br />Yes, that was my experience as well. But only in person, not on-line.<br /><br />> And actually, most of my interaction the 20 years I have known him has been online.<br /><br />That's interesting. Can you point me to a few examples of Erik changing his mind on-line?<br /><br />> And I don't think Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-82642765734610570952009-07-02T13:11:54.509-07:002009-07-02T13:11:54.509-07:00First, thank you for your kind words to me. I do n...First, thank you for your kind words to me. I do not want to argue with you, because I do not have Erik's eloquence, not his energy to do so. What I will say, is that I believe you are wrong. One of the things I learnt about discussing with Erik was that if I could back my arguments with facts, he WOULD CHANGE HIS MIND. I guess that's why I didn't discuss much with him, because I didnMs. Lene Jensenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08324342355284298433noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-88613021285306922322009-07-02T12:52:01.875-07:002009-07-02T12:52:01.875-07:00> I'm one of Erik's friends
I'm so...> I'm one of Erik's friends<br /><br />I'm sorry for your loss.<br /><br />> Erik was driven by facts.<br /><br />I'm sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree with this. Erik may have *said* that he was driven by facts, and he may have even sincerely believed that he was driven by facts, but in fact (no pun intended) he wasn't. He would often present opinion as if itRonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-77881680136545941082009-07-02T12:30:14.396-07:002009-07-02T12:30:14.396-07:00I'm one of Erik's friends, so of course I ...I'm one of Erik's friends, so of course I am biased. I just wanted to point out that when Erik said he had no energy to describe things to "the likes of you", that was probably the truth. At the time, he barely had energy to describe things to his friends.<br /><br />Erik was sick the last 10 years of his life, and we could see him mellow over the years due to lack of energy. Ms. Lene Jensenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08324342355284298433noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-30693927863879716122009-07-01T07:09:50.028-07:002009-07-01T07:09:50.028-07:00> > such as those in clc
>
> It's...> > such as those in clc<br />> <br />> It's CLL, not CLC.<br /><br />Correct. It's the same habitual typo I've made seven times here.<br />Given that you didn't point it out until now I assume it was not<br />interfering with our ability to communicate.<br /><br />> > you work for JPL<br />> <br />> No, I don't.<br /><br />My mistake. I didn't Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15677633650730985946noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-80013510347346139882009-07-01T00:44:05.577-07:002009-07-01T00:44:05.577-07:00> I'm observing and documenting facts
ROTF...> I'm observing and documenting facts<br /><br />ROTFLMFAO!<br /><br />> such as those in clc<br /><br />It's CLL, not CLC.<br /><br />> you work for JPL<br /><br />No, I don't.<br /><br />This does not augur well for your career as a fact checker.Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-85292896339079234442009-06-30T18:00:00.399-07:002009-06-30T18:00:00.399-07:00Ron Garret wrote:
> Actually, if I were going t...Ron Garret wrote:<br />> Actually, if I were going to engage in wild speculation, I would guess<br />> that Keith is trying to emulate *my* style, to do to me something akin<br />> to what I did to Erik in order to teach me some kind of lesson. If that's<br />> the case I wish he'd get on with it. I only went four iterations with Erik<br />> before I came clean about my Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15677633650730985946noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-44286699033128626032009-06-29T23:58:24.074-07:002009-06-29T23:58:24.074-07:00> I enjoyed reading this, Ron... FWIW I wouldn&...> I enjoyed reading this, Ron... FWIW I wouldn't worry too much about the things that Kieth says are petty and superfluous in your telling, they didn't come off that way to me.<br /><br />Thanks.<br /><br />> I'd be interested to hear more of your thoughts on this topic in general.<br /><br />I was contemplating writing some more about this, but I'm kind of interested to Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-23726864774161390622009-06-29T21:00:43.672-07:002009-06-29T21:00:43.672-07:00I enjoyed reading this, Ron. I follow comp.lang.ja...I enjoyed reading this, Ron. I follow comp.lang.javascript from time to time and it reminded me of some of the personalities on there. Especially the frustrating aspect of being difficult and possibly off-putting, but actually very intelligent and in the end, probably correct. <br /><br />FWIW I wouldn't worry too much about the things that Kieth says are petty and superfluous in your tellingDanstonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09407727136490964205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-68825240305784405362009-06-29T11:26:08.180-07:002009-06-29T11:26:08.180-07:00Ron: You're obviously much more familiar with ...Ron: You're obviously much more familiar with Erik's style than I am, so perhaps my guess about a possible mimic attempt was off base.<br /><br />That said, in polite discussion there is an attempt for a meeting of the minds, an honest exploration of differences, a presumption of the benefit of the doubt, a seeking of truth. As opposed to: a lawyerly approach of seeking to "win"Don Geddishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14921093108555061757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-84130042139271377092009-06-29T08:59:05.089-07:002009-06-29T08:59:05.089-07:00Keith: no rush.
Don: I really think you're be...Keith: no rush.<br /><br />Don: I really think you're being unfair here. I'm probably as familiar with Erik's style as anyone, and this ain't it. If I were going to draw a comparison, I'd say that Keith's style reminds me a lot more of Anthony Atkielski, a notorious troll who posts on the rec.aviation groups under the handle mxsmanic. He's annoying, but not rude.Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-6242585450081303622009-06-29T08:33:53.179-07:002009-06-29T08:33:53.179-07:00Keith asked: "which aspects of my style you f...Keith asked: <i>"which aspects of my style you find remind you of Erik's posts [?]"</i><br /><br />The combination of precision to technical detail, with a deliberate disregard for the typical rules of polite discourse. With your choice of words and tone, you quickly add unnecessary negative emotional energy to the exchange. This makes continuing a discussion with you unpleasant, Don Geddishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14921093108555061757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-45082013112738605582009-06-28T22:57:15.580-07:002009-06-28T22:57:15.580-07:00Ron,
You have asked some questions that deserve a...Ron,<br /><br />You have asked some questions that deserve answering. I am sorry<br />I don't have time to answer them tonight (only had time to reply<br />to Don just now and morning is coming soon for me). I will do my<br />best to respond tomorrow. Thanks for your patience.<br /><br />KHDUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15677633650730985946noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-10125914560751060842009-06-28T22:51:23.507-07:002009-06-28T22:51:23.507-07:00Don Geddis wrote:
> Keith, I can see why you ar...Don Geddis wrote:<br />> Keith, I can see why you are such a fan of Erik's. Your posting<br />> style here, reminds me a lot of his on c.l.l.<br />><br />> (Staying true to form, you ought to take that as a compliment.<br />> Others may have different reactions, of course.)<br /><br />That depends on which aspects of my style you find remind you of<br />Erik's posts. Said Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15677633650730985946noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-79935712518775309702009-06-28T22:30:10.408-07:002009-06-28T22:30:10.408-07:00> Keith, I can see why you are such a fan of Er...> Keith, I can see why you are such a fan of Erik's. Your posting style here, reminds me a lot of his on c.l.l.<br /><br />Interesting. Keith doesn't seem like Erik to me at all. Keith is much more polite than Erik.<br /><br />Actually, if I were going to engage in wild speculation, I would guess that Keith is trying to emulate *my* style, to do to me something akin to what I did to Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-82071835448265386762009-06-28T21:35:26.162-07:002009-06-28T21:35:26.162-07:00Unless you're just playing a game? I don'...Unless you're just playing a game? I don't know you. Is your participation on this thread, a form of homage to Erik at the time of his passing, by way of some kind of performance art?<br /><br />If so, I guess that was somewhat clever.<br /><br />If not, and all your comments were meant honestly, then I suppose I have nothing further to say to you. Sorry, either way.Don Geddishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14921093108555061757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-71967373428153193702009-06-28T21:33:07.827-07:002009-06-28T21:33:07.827-07:00Keith, I can see why you are such a fan of Erik...Keith, I can see why you are such a fan of Erik's. Your posting style here, reminds me a lot of his on c.l.l.<br /><br />(Staying true to form, you ought to take that as a compliment. Others may have different reactions, of course.)Don Geddishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14921093108555061757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-32123177461912577132009-06-28T15:10:42.902-07:002009-06-28T15:10:42.902-07:00>> What can I say? This was ten years ago. C...>> What can I say? This was ten years ago. Certainly if I knew then<br />>> what I know now I would have done things differently.<br />><br />> That is a key statement. Is that the first time you've publicly<br />> admitted this?<br /><br />I don't know. Could be.<br /><br />> Of course. However, wanting Erik to change versus wanting you to<br />> to crusade Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.com