tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post889194752927116947..comments2024-03-18T17:28:44.693-07:00Comments on Rondam Ramblings: I Will Remember Ricky Ray RectorRonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comBlogger101125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-23177219963333706002020-09-15T10:02:23.363-07:002020-09-15T10:02:23.363-07:00Ah, I watched that video a while ago. Kudos for li...Ah, I watched that video a while ago. Kudos for linking to the video with a transcript. This part is eminently sensible:<br /><br />>> And so to be anti-racist is to believe that there's nothing wrong or inferior about black people or any other racial group. (~4:25)<br /><br />This [partially] matches <a href="#c3359641810006937820" rel="nofollow">Ron's choice</a> of Wikipedia'sLukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18395549142176242491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-54042385350489996962020-09-14T20:43:04.970-07:002020-09-14T20:43:04.970-07:00Just to offer something on the other side, here...Just to offer something on the other side, here's an hour-long video <a href="https://www.ted.com/talks/ibram_x_kendi_the_difference_between_being_not_racist_and_antiracist" rel="nofollow">interview of Ibram Kendi</a>, author of "How To Be An Antiracist".<br /><br />He's wrong about almost everything (morality, history, economics). But I wouldn't be surprised if Ron buys Don Geddishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04214642122689048677noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-29197465734821064952020-09-14T14:59:07.043-07:002020-09-14T14:59:07.043-07:00Wow, that G. Thomas Burgess Quillette article Anti...Wow, that G. Thomas Burgess <i>Quillette</i> article <a href="https://quillette.com/2020/09/13/anti-racist-structuralists-and-non-racist-culturalists/" rel="nofollow">Anti-Racist Structuralists and Non-Racist Culturalists</a> is quite germane to our discussion. Among other things, he documents a transition in Ta-Nehisi Coates' thinking from something like <a href="#c4277250256730920352" rel="Lukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18395549142176242491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-67634185268205887102020-09-14T09:55:25.688-07:002020-09-14T09:55:25.688-07:00My words have obviously been completely ineffectiv...My words have obviously been completely ineffective here, with Ron. Perhaps essays by others will be more useful.<br /><br />Ron, perhaps you could try <a href="https://www.rocanews.com/blog-posts/for-racial-healing-reject-critical-race-theory" rel="nofollow">James Lindsay's article</a>. Do you support "Critical Race Theory"? (I don't.) What is your response to his Don Geddishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04214642122689048677noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-46003521441183226942020-09-13T23:28:38.382-07:002020-09-13T23:28:38.382-07:00Try Google Scholar
@Ron:
>(And don't even ...<b>Try Google Scholar</b><br /><br />@Ron:<br /><i>>(And don't even get me started on Publius!)</i><br /><br />I am the only one who has posted links to <i>peer-reviewed literature</i>. which is one of your standards for quality scientific inquiry: <br /><br /><a href="https://t.ly/L6oY" rel="nofollow">An examination of the relationship between general life stress, racism-related stress, Publiushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00647613579979908182noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-14654298364752722142020-09-12T20:44:52.050-07:002020-09-12T20:44:52.050-07:00@Ron: "I do not know how I could possibly hav...@Ron: "<i>I do not know how I could possibly have made this any clearer: Not a single one of us is even within sight of the moral high ground here, certainly not me.</i>"<br /><br />You apparently can't see that your own comments are self-contradictory.<br /><br />You're allowed to say "certainly not me". That is self-criticism.<br /><br />You are not allowed to say &Don Geddishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04214642122689048677noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-67786258181429569942020-09-12T18:16:19.320-07:002020-09-12T18:16:19.320-07:00@Ron:
> Don: I ask you once again: stop applyi...@Ron:<br /><br />> <a href="#c1469227317355001565" rel="nofollow">Don</a>: I ask you once again: stop applying moral judgments and shame in this discussion.<br /><br />> <a href="#c4174581364096358329" rel="nofollow">Ron</a>: No, I will not. Because what is happening here is shameful. <br /><br />> <a href="#c5887219866957171912" rel="nofollow">Don</a>: So you just won't let it go. Lukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18395549142176242491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-58045477620056508842020-09-12T17:41:42.126-07:002020-09-12T17:41:42.126-07:00@Ron:
> Don: I support and agree with your eff...@Ron:<br /><br />> <a href="#c8714058061820434063" rel="nofollow">Don</a>: I support and agree with your effort to fight and shame current racists. My prediction is that, even if you were to succeed, it would have little effect on average US black outcomes.<br /><br />> <a href="#c8992393592612486799" rel="nofollow">Ron</a>: Do you realize that that is an incredibly racist statement?<br /><Lukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18395549142176242491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-89078131253532130602020-09-12T17:15:37.316-07:002020-09-12T17:15:37.316-07:00> You persist in thinking it's ok to lectur...> You persist in thinking it's ok to lecture and berate the rest of us, in judgment from your perch of moral superiority.<br /><br />No, I do not. I do not know how I could possibly have made this any clearer:<br /><br />"Not a single one of us is even within sight of the moral high ground here, <b>certainly not me</b>."<br /><br />> You're essentially arguing identity Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-58872198669571719122020-09-12T16:26:53.448-07:002020-09-12T16:26:53.448-07:00@Ron: "No, you manifestly did not, and still ...@Ron: "<i>No, you manifestly did not, and still don't.</i>"<br /><br />Yes, I do (and did -- even before you came up with your hypothetical example).<br /><br />"<i>There is an ENORMOUS difference between...</i>"<br /><br />Yes, I know.<br /><br />"<i>what you accused me of</i>"<br /><br />Yes, I know that I overreacted to this part a little bit, and pushed my Don Geddishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04214642122689048677noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-41745813640963583292020-09-12T15:38:25.257-07:002020-09-12T15:38:25.257-07:00> Yes, of course I understood that.
No, you ma...> Yes, of course I understood that.<br /><br />No, you manifestly did not, and still don't. There is an ENORMOUS difference between "Name-calling to get an emotional reaction" (what you accused me of) and what I actually did: asking someone to consider how they would feel *if* someone did something to provoke an emotional reaction in them in a situation where they could not Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-14692273173550015652020-09-12T12:51:44.366-07:002020-09-12T12:51:44.366-07:00@Ron: Two white people discussing whether you were...@Ron: Two white people discussing whether you were being "intellectually honest" in this debate is not what the term "whitesplaining" means.<br /><br />Ironically, your accusation of "whitesplaining" is yet <i>another</i> example of my primary complaint: that you respond to a disagreement not with evidence or reason, but instead with shaming and moral attacks. That Don Geddishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04214642122689048677noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-1717746012625779652020-09-12T12:16:35.849-07:002020-09-12T12:16:35.849-07:00@Don:
> Are you asking honestly?
I'm not ...@Don:<br /><br />> Are you asking honestly?<br /><br />I'm not *asking* at all. I'm *telling* you. I am out of ideas. Note the absence of question marks.<br /><br />One of the reasons I am out of ideas is that the gulf between what I am saying and the lack of understanding indicated in your responses is so vast that I have no idea how to bridge it. If I write a statement and you Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-25373600272752546402020-09-11T22:04:59.753-07:002020-09-11T22:04:59.753-07:00I'm glad I can be of some help. I feel like I&...I'm glad I can be of some help. I feel like I've just helped gang up on Ron, which wasn't my intent. I just thought some precision comments might help move the conversation past an impasse. These are hard issues and in my internet experience, this rises at most to "medium" in terms of flared tempers and raw emotions. I'm somewhat alarmed at what I see as a general Lukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18395549142176242491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-22787730054750916902020-09-11T20:55:36.250-07:002020-09-11T20:55:36.250-07:00@Luke: Let me thank you for trying to take an outs...@Luke: Let me thank you for trying to take an outsider's look here at the conflict between me and Ron, and express things differently than I have been able to. I agree with most of what you've said, but either way, I appreciate the effort.<br /><br />"<i>It is as if because you cannot see a rational basis, probably there isn't one ... What you don't seem to have seen, is Don Geddishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04214642122689048677noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-82026432189049381972020-09-11T20:51:09.295-07:002020-09-11T20:51:09.295-07:00@Ron: "the single worst train wreck in the 17...@Ron: "<i>the single worst train wreck in the 17-year history of this blog ... I'm just out of ideas. ... I just don't know what else to say. ... *even if* I had some idea of how to proceed from here (and I really don't)</i>"<br /><br />Are you asking honestly? Do you really not know? After all I've said, and even all that Luke has said? You really have no idea?<br />Don Geddishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04214642122689048677noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-70485742949380252222020-09-11T15:29:25.399-07:002020-09-11T15:29:25.399-07:00@Ron, @Don:
> Don: I never said anything about...@Ron, @Don:<br /><br />> <a href="#c5622258614837268677" rel="nofollow">Don</a>: I never said anything about blacks being fundamentally inferior.<br /><br />> <a href="#c7366317741776599193" rel="nofollow">Ron</a>: Why not? On what rational basis can you possibly ascribe poor black outcomes to poor choices but not to fundamental inferiority? Has someone done a study that somehow teases out Lukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18395549142176242491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-71536671029653291192020-09-11T15:25:15.831-07:002020-09-11T15:25:15.831-07:00@Luke:
> does this not qualify at all as what ...@Luke:<br /><br />> does this not qualify at all as what you were looking for?<br /><br />No [1], that was actually very helpful. Thanks.<br /><br />---<br /><br />[1] It is an interesting artifact of English that it is impossible to give a yes-no answer to a yes-no question posed as a negative ("Does this not...?") without being ambiguous.<br />Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-26084655455602380512020-09-11T15:07:40.476-07:002020-09-11T15:07:40.476-07:00@Ron:
> Luke: is it blaming the victim to note...@Ron:<br /><br />> <a href="#c4277250256730920352" rel="nofollow">Luke</a>: is it blaming the victim to note that a child of alcoholic parents has developed some coping mechanisms which are maladaptive of the wider world?<br /><br />> <a href="#c9069792580083397747" rel="nofollow">Ron</a>: It is if you use the fact that someone's parents were alcoholics as a reason not to hire them for Lukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18395549142176242491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-2103581908987810192020-09-11T14:07:58.699-07:002020-09-11T14:07:58.699-07:00@Luke:
> This is only rational if you believe ...@Luke:<br /><br />> This is only rational if you believe you have zero duty...<br /><br />Yes, of course. The rationality of an action can only ever be assessed relative to a goal or a quality metric. Rationality cannot tell you anything about what goals you should choose to adopt.<br /><br />> I picked alcoholism because it is far simpler than slavery<br /><br />Sure, but now you're Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-88263063055659513872020-09-11T13:27:13.859-07:002020-09-11T13:27:13.859-07:00@Don:
> you are explicitly opposed to a merito...@Don:<br /><br />> you are explicitly opposed to a meritocratic society<br /><br />No.<br /><br />> I'm going to have to assume<br /><br />No, you are not going to have to assume. You can choose to assume. You've chosen to do a lot of assuming in this discussion. Nearly all of your assumptions have been wrong, and my attempts to correct them have led to the single worst train Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-89503273247992319032020-09-11T13:17:54.088-07:002020-09-11T13:17:54.088-07:00@Ron:
> > is it blaming the victim to note ...@Ron:<br /><br />> > is it blaming the victim to note that a child of alcoholic parents has developed some coping mechanisms which are maladaptive of the wider world?<br /><br />> It is if you use the fact that someone's parents were alcoholics as a reason not to hire them for a position where the maladaptive coping mechanisms of the children of alcoholics would hinder their job Lukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18395549142176242491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-63192089109701021852020-09-11T12:32:22.227-07:002020-09-11T12:32:22.227-07:00@Ron: "It is [blaming the victim] if you use ...@Ron: "<i>It is [blaming the victim] if you use the fact that someone's parents were alcoholics as a reason not to hire them for a position where the maladaptive coping mechanisms of the children of alcoholics would hinder their job performance.</i>"<br /><br />Ah, so you are explicitly opposed to a meritocratic society. I'm going to have to assume that you're similarly in Don Geddishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04214642122689048677noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-90697925800833977472020-09-11T11:59:41.539-07:002020-09-11T11:59:41.539-07:00@Luke:
> is it blaming the victim to note that...@Luke:<br /><br />> is it blaming the victim to note that a child of alcoholic parents has developed some coping mechanisms which are maladaptive of the wider world?<br /><br />It is if you use the fact that someone's parents were alcoholics as a reason not to hire them for a position where the maladaptive coping mechanisms of the children of alcoholics would hinder their job performance.Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-39733060058710091712020-09-11T08:58:19.415-07:002020-09-11T08:58:19.415-07:00@Luke: I really appreciated your alcoholic parent ...@Luke: I really appreciated your alcoholic parent analogy, and especially the distinction between "guilty" vs. "responsible" for change. Very insightful. +1.Don Geddishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04214642122689048677noreply@blogger.com