tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post8634440979244259857..comments2024-03-18T17:28:44.693-07:00Comments on Rondam Ramblings: The difference between science and religion, take 2Ronhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-86806865321534001882015-05-09T13:55:12.444-07:002015-05-09T13:55:12.444-07:00I have some additional thoughts which are going ar...I have some additional thoughts which are going around in my head a long time. First I think the term religion needs some clarification. I suspect that religion and science share the same origin, the search for truth. But religion is metaphorical looking inside and science is the search outside. While religion explores the conditio humana, the humanity in itself, does science ignoring this bias Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02221240630373637249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-32804159624526064512015-03-31T23:47:50.670-07:002015-03-31T23:47:50.670-07:00The Atheist Meta-Problem
Atheists will read the B...The Atheist Meta-Problem<br /><br />Atheists will read the Bible (at various level of rigorousness). The construct an <i>unskilled religion</i> as a straw-man to burn down. So we get the usual objections:<br />1. Bible verse Set A{...} contradicts Set B{...}<br />2. Bible verse X: God does something objectionable<br />3. Bible verse Y: God tells people to do something objectionable<br />4. Publiushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00647613579979908182noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-68624686448256010672015-03-31T23:45:37.332-07:002015-03-31T23:45:37.332-07:00The Great Pumpkin and Sincerity
@Ron
And yet, in ...The Great Pumpkin and Sincerity<br /><br />@Ron<br /><i>And yet, in all of recorded history there has never been a case of an amputated limb being restored. That is rather curious. It seems to me that there are only three possibilities:</i><br /><br />There is usually another possibility - which is you didn't think of all of the possibilities.<br /><br /><i>1. No believer has ever asked Publiushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00647613579979908182noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-44377529752110658862015-03-23T23:26:39.582-07:002015-03-23T23:26:39.582-07:00@DJP:
That is a very good point, but there is act...@DJP:<br /><br />That is a very good point, but there is actually a lot of evidence that what scientists say is true that is directly accessible to anyone who cares to check. See <a href="http://blog.rongarret.info/2015/01/why-i-believe-in-michelson-morley.html" rel="nofollow">here</a> and <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YUQ-sJrTW4" rel="nofollow">here</a> for two examples.Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-60366323464711694412015-03-23T23:09:18.486-07:002015-03-23T23:09:18.486-07:00I have not read through all the comments. Probably...I have not read through all the comments. Probably what I am about to say has been covered by somebody already.<br /><br />To cut to the chase: pretty much everyone's grounds for belief in science is testimony rather than evidence. That includes scientists. Convictions are based on reading research papers, talking to colleagues, etc. No scientist has the time to reproduce more than a few Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00684479362221392620noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-35947288274302349892015-03-21T17:03:14.231-07:002015-03-21T17:03:14.231-07:00@Ron, cont.:
> > I am more interested in th...@Ron, cont.:<br /><br />> > I am more interested in the after-affects, in the here-and-now, if they can be somehow discerned.<br /><br />> Yes, so am I frankly. And I am particularly interested in discerning the differences between the effects of the (alleged) resurrection and the effects of *belief* in the resurrection. The latter are indisputably real.<br /><br />In that case, would Lukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18395549142176242491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-67588218526027810412015-03-21T16:56:53.521-07:002015-03-21T16:56:53.521-07:00@Ron, cont.:
> Of course not. But the concept ...@Ron, cont.:<br /><br />> Of course not. But the concept of an omnipotent deity who transcends space and time being *dead* (which is a pre-requisite for being resurrected) doesn't seem entirely sensible to me either.<br /><br />Are you trying to find the rules of that "doesn't seem entirely sensible"—let's call them "not-quite-sensible rules", or NQSRs for shortLukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18395549142176242491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-28947862662928466362015-03-21T16:49:43.209-07:002015-03-21T16:49:43.209-07:00@Ron:
> Trying != succeeding, Yoda notwithstan...@Ron:<br /><br />> Trying != succeeding, Yoda notwithstanding. Believe it or not, I really am trying.<br /><br />Well, have I convinced you that you need to think through Pony-Power more? I <i>did</i> give you two <i>Star Trek</i> episodes where the idea of Pony-Power is explored a bit. Incidentally, this reminds me of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ender%27s_Game" rel="nofollow">Ender&Lukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18395549142176242491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-88634302419748584502015-03-21T12:40:33.525-07:002015-03-21T12:40:33.525-07:00> Seriously?
Yes. But I should have mentioned...<br />> Seriously?<br /><br />Yes. But I should have mentioned to start at the 1 minute mark.<br /><br />> Please show the causal intelligibility that links Jesus' resurrection to saving us from hell.<br /><br />I can't show you causal intelligibility because I don't think it's causally intelligible. But I can cite authority: Mark 16:16. Rom4:25, 5:1, 6:4.Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-8362381606730893042015-03-21T12:40:24.412-07:002015-03-21T12:40:24.412-07:00> my claim is that part of respecting other pe...> my claim is that part of respecting other people as human beings is to try to make sense of their attempts to make sense of reality.<br /><br />Trying != succeeding, Yoda notwithstanding. Believe it or not, I really am trying.<br /><br />> One would have to analyze what it means to have enough pistis.<br /><br />No, one would not. Why? Because the fact that no mountain has *ever* beenRonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-85601749189664650292015-03-21T11:46:39.662-07:002015-03-21T11:46:39.662-07:00@Ron, cont.:
> No, you didn't. I wanted an...@Ron, cont.:<br /><br />> No, you didn't. I wanted an example of a historical event that is NOT subject to experimental scrutiny. But the existence of Paul *is* subject to experimental scrutiny. We have *evidence* of Paul's existence: his writings, one of which is signed, and the rest which can be attributed to him by textual analysis.<br /><br />Tell me about a historical event that &Lukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18395549142176242491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-91335985557541065042015-03-21T11:36:57.967-07:002015-03-21T11:36:57.967-07:00@Ron:
> Seriously, though, figuring out the lo...@Ron:<br /><br />> Seriously, though, figuring out the logical coherence of prayer is frankly not my problem because I'm not the one making the claim.<br /><br />An excellent way to discredit one's opponent is to make his/her arguments out to be ridiculous, when they aren't necessarily so. Now, this "excellent way" is not a truth-seeking operation, but it is rhetorically Lukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18395549142176242491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-15640287354894049242015-03-21T11:24:14.394-07:002015-03-21T11:24:14.394-07:00> True. But now give everyone pony-praying-powe...<br />> True. But now give everyone pony-praying-power. Does that mean that Hitler could pray for all the Jews to disappear and have that happen?<br /><br />[voice = 7-year-old]<br />No. If everyone has pony-praying power then Hitler could only pray for a pony. Duh!<br />[/voice]<br /><br />Seriously, though, figuring out the logical coherence of prayer is frankly not my problem because I&#Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-6407352998526955032015-03-21T11:01:08.032-07:002015-03-21T11:01:08.032-07:00@Ron:
> Sorry, praying for a pony is a perfect...@Ron:<br /><br />> Sorry, praying for a pony is a perfectly coherent concept.<br /><br />True. But now give everyone pony-praying-power. Does that mean that Hitler could pray for all the Jews to disappear and have that happen? I'm guessing that the concept you espoused is only coherent because you didn't take it to its logical conclusions.<br /><br />> So is praying for amputated Lukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18395549142176242491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-49068105290386603552015-03-21T01:15:23.702-07:002015-03-21T01:15:23.702-07:00> I'm challenging you to defend that you ev...> I'm challenging you to defend that you even presented a coherent concept<br /><br />Sorry, praying for a pony is a perfectly coherent concept. So is praying for amputated limbs to be healed, which I think is not only coherent, it seems to me *legitimate* thing to pray for. (Actually, even a pony might be a legitimate thing to pray for if I were seven. I don't recall Jesus's Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-9920792592812639552015-03-21T00:24:12.896-07:002015-03-21T00:24:12.896-07:00@Ron:
> So you're attacking a straw man he...@Ron:<br /><br />> So you're attacking a straw man here.<br /><br />No, not really. Your reason was not incoherence of the idea that you can ask for a pony, taken to its logical conclusion of everything getting what they ask for. Instead, your reason was because you have to truly <i>believe</i>, and you don't. I'm challenging you to defend that you even presented a coherent conceptLukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18395549142176242491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-47643252224453587072015-03-20T23:49:58.987-07:002015-03-20T23:49:58.987-07:00> I critiqued the idea that you asked for a pon...> I critiqued the idea that you asked for a pony.<br /><br />Yes. So did I:<br /><br />"Well, duh, of course there's no pony. That's exactly what the theory predicts."<br /><br />So you're attacking a straw man here.<br /><br />>> Can you suggest an experiment that would determine which one is false?<br />>There would appear to be many historical facts which Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-30930318888029686272015-03-20T20:31:57.738-07:002015-03-20T20:31:57.738-07:00@Ron:
> > Does "the experimental data&...@Ron:<br /><br />> > Does "the experimental data" 100% determine:<br />> ><br />> > 1. the fundamental, ontological nature of reality<br />> > 2. how we as humans ought to act<br /><br />> No, not 100%, not yet. But the data do provide some pretty tight constraints on #1 and some general guidance on #2. And we're learning more all the time, so the answer Lukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18395549142176242491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-56841743852829681602015-03-20T20:21:19.552-07:002015-03-20T20:21:19.552-07:00@Ron:
> I dunno, I think asking people who bel...@Ron:<br /><br />> I dunno, I think asking people who believe to pray for the restoration of amputated limbs, and to expect at least on of those prayers to be answered, is not absurd on its face.<br /><br />But this is not what I critiqued. I critiqued the idea that you asked for a <i>pony</i>. The idea that said verse on prayer means you could pray a pony into existence is incoherent if you Lukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18395549142176242491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-89775574199671070932015-03-20T17:11:21.221-07:002015-03-20T17:11:21.221-07:00Somewhat off topic, but CNN just published a (long...Somewhat off topic, but CNN just published a (long) front-page article on the journey of <a href="http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2015/03/living/friendly-atheists-next-door/" rel="nofollow">a Catholic (and his family) who slowly became an atheist</a>.Don Geddishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04214642122689048677noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-16265106107516227622015-03-20T16:45:51.030-07:002015-03-20T16:45:51.030-07:00> Your model for what Mt 21:22 is frankly, nons...> Your model for what Mt 21:22 is frankly, nonsensical.<br /><br />I dunno, I think asking people who believe to pray for the restoration of amputated limbs, and to expect at least on of those prayers to be answered, is not absurd on its face. But fine, here are two theories:<br /><br />1. The Resurrection actually happened<br /><br />2. The Resurrection didn't actually happen, but Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-49059118037459239532015-03-20T15:55:08.224-07:002015-03-20T15:55:08.224-07:00> So the difference between science and religio...> So the difference between science and religion, it seems to me, is something like this: in science, at the end of the day, after all the transients caused by politics and human foibles have settled (and they always do), the experimental data wins. In religion, it doesn't. In religion, something else, like scripture or other people's beliefs or striving for "goodness", canLukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18395549142176242491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-69237230227049867912015-03-20T15:44:06.736-07:002015-03-20T15:44:06.736-07:00> And yet, in all of recorded history there has...> And yet, in all of recorded history there has never been a case of an amputated limb being restored.<br /><br />You might as well link to http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/ .<br /><br />> It seems to me that there are only three possibilities:<br />><br />> 1. No believer has ever asked for this.<br />><br />> 2. There is some reason that limbs are off-limits.<br />><br /Lukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18395549142176242491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-84037771584834715612015-03-20T15:36:16.064-07:002015-03-20T15:36:16.064-07:00> Well, the Bible says this:
>
>> And ...> Well, the Bible says this:<br />><br />>> And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive. (Matthew 21:22)<br />><br />> This sounds to me like a testable prediction: if you ask for something in prayer, and you believe, then you will receive what you ask for. This is an unrestricted offer. It applies to "all things" and "Lukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18395549142176242491noreply@blogger.com