tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post7941719844598525632..comments2024-03-18T17:28:44.693-07:00Comments on Rondam Ramblings: HTML is object codeRonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comBlogger51125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-26332108695003299122009-08-05T09:50:02.777-07:002009-08-05T09:50:02.777-07:00My sympathies. There are times in anyone's li...My sympathies. There are times in anyone's life when they are faced with the choice of caving in to the demands of an ignorant and unreasonable customer or boss, or doing the Right Thing (c.f. Michael Jackson's physician). This is never an easy choice to make. But just because there are ignorant and unreasonable customers in the world does not change the fact that the Right Thing is Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-16537995375733263432009-08-05T09:31:33.815-07:002009-08-05T09:31:33.815-07:00Let me just say that as of ten minutes ago I got t...Let me just say that as of ten minutes ago I got turned down for another job by somebody saying:<br /><br />"Your output unfortunately uses tables (a complete no-no!)."<br /><br />In case anyone's wondering I had used tables in a PSD > XHTML conversion test run for a potential employer in two different spots to present tabular data.<br /><br />What has this crazy world come to?ChristianZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10926523379961771939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-45903568144729904052009-08-04T19:12:37.754-07:002009-08-04T19:12:37.754-07:00> I was just pointing out that your example of ...> I was just pointing out that your example of a JavaScript date selector widget is not very good because it's not clear how it relates to CSS/layout.<br /><br />I was trying to make the point that you *can* create an abstract "dateinput" widget which can be "styled" with a javascript calendar. But you can *only* do this on the server side. But once you accept that Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-82037335643221413822009-08-04T18:43:03.793-07:002009-08-04T18:43:03.793-07:00"Making two things the same height should be ..."Making two things the same height should be easy for a language that is meant for layout and that's why CSS as supported by the current crop of browsers leaves much to be desired when it comes to layout."<br /><br />CSS may not be perfect in this regard, but you can do something like this:<br /><br /><b>#sidebar, #content<br />{<br /> height: 800px;<br />}</b>ChristianZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10926523379961771939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-47982782292367991642009-08-04T18:14:47.843-07:002009-08-04T18:14:47.843-07:00> Indeed. But if a language is to be used for l...> Indeed. But if a language is to be used for layout it should IMHO at least be possible to say, e.g. "Make this thing the same height as that thing."<br /><br />I agree about layout. Making two things the same height should be easy for a language that is meant for layout and that's why CSS as supported by the current crop of browsers leaves much to be desired when it comes to Danstonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09407727136490964205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-77140255507471503392009-08-04T16:47:08.404-07:002009-08-04T16:47:08.404-07:00> I only tested on FF for now
Which is how man...> I only tested on FF for now<br /><br />Which is how many people fool themselves into thinking that one hack or another actually works. In this case, the hack is display:table-cell, which doesn't work in many popular browsers (I believe IE is one of them, but I don't remember). If display:table-cell worked in all browsers that would, of course, solve the problem. But it doesn'tRonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-26741817081765747182009-08-04T16:31:35.443-07:002009-08-04T16:31:35.443-07:00That wasn't even a challenge. 15 mins. A few t...That wasn't even a challenge. 15 mins. A few tweaks could be made, and I only tested on FF for now, but here it is.<br />http://jsbin.com/otogeShawn J. Goffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02761477925679809902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-76313208648920890882009-08-04T15:59:03.141-07:002009-08-04T15:59:03.141-07:00"I don't care what someone does in the pr..."I don't care what someone does in the privacy of their own website."<br /><br />Okay, so then you agree it would make sense for you to stop saying that you question their judgment. Agreed? Agreed. Problem solved. Thank you for your agreement.<br /><br />"http://www.flownet.com/ron/demosite.html"<br /><br />Wow, that don't look like anything I would ever use. I was ChristianZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10926523379961771939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-36934870177321233452009-08-04T15:53:49.316-07:002009-08-04T15:53:49.316-07:00> Not everything should be easy to express in e...> Not everything should be easy to express in every language.<br /><br />Indeed. But if a language is to be used for layout it should IMHO at least be possible to say, e.g. "Make this thing the same height as that thing."<br /><br />> When you say, "the same" do you mean the same for each browser?<br /><br />No, I mean "the same as if the rendering had been done onRonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-25193216414065671832009-08-04T15:44:50.564-07:002009-08-04T15:44:50.564-07:00> That still doesn't explain why you would ...> That still doesn't explain why you would question the judgment of somebody for whom it is not hard. If their method works for them and their own projects why would you tell them it doesn't and/or that you question their judgment? That's the great unanswered question here.<br /><br />I don't care what someone does in the privacy of their own website.<br /><br />> Do you Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-84697877124035884952009-08-04T15:00:02.654-07:002009-08-04T15:00:02.654-07:00> It's because CSS has limited expressivene...> It's because CSS has limited expressiveness.<br /><br />Not everything should be easy to express in every language. Making JavaScript a subset of CSS seems like a mistake to me. IE supported it for years but it did as much to hurt performance as it did to help layouts. Since CSS is only for defining how something looks and JavaScript is for defining interactions with it I actually preferDanstonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09407727136490964205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-13663678461103692362009-08-04T13:07:37.509-07:002009-08-04T13:07:37.509-07:00"Because I have to keep my site maintained wh..."Because I have to keep my site maintained whether or not you are available to work for me."<br /><br />That still doesn't explain why you would question the judgment of somebody for whom it is not hard. If their method works for them and their own projects why would you tell them it doesn't and/or that you question their judgment? That's the great unanswered question here.<ChristianZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10926523379961771939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-86466782718368950202009-08-04T12:30:47.245-07:002009-08-04T12:30:47.245-07:00> However YOU perceive it, why would you questi...> However YOU perceive it, why would you question the judgment of somebody for whom it is not hard?<br /><br />Because I have to keep my site maintained whether or not you are available to work for me.<br /><br />BTW, if CSS is so easy, then please point me to what you would consider to be the Right Answer to the so-called "holy-grail" layout:<br /><br />1. A fluid layout with a Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-30124584426242017802009-08-04T12:10:56.271-07:002009-08-04T12:10:56.271-07:00> I've reread it a few times now and I don&...> I've reread it a few times now and I don't understand why "we can't" say ".dateinput { ... }". Could you clarify that point?<br /><br />It's because CSS has limited expressiveness. There are some things you can say easily in CSS (like make this text bold, or make the background color green), some things that are much harder (like make this element Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-45301801468554159732009-08-04T11:21:51.704-07:002009-08-04T11:21:51.704-07:00Thanks ChristianZ
That's useful and clear in...Thanks ChristianZ<br /> <br />That's useful and clear information. <br />Geoffggeoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02017569012623523830noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-77503041068281970772009-08-04T10:52:10.626-07:002009-08-04T10:52:10.626-07:00I understand that this post was to explain a singl...I understand that this post was to explain a single point in a wider discussion but it makes it seem like there's a conflict between HTML-as-object-code and CSS (for layout or otherwise). I don't see a conflict there. One could write code in any language, compile that code to HTML, and it could contain the appropriate CSS classes and be otherwise semantically correct. (I mean semantic in Danstonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09407727136490964205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-24256236002841903422009-08-04T10:33:04.042-07:002009-08-04T10:33:04.042-07:00"For me the hardest task is to move inline st..."For me the hardest task is to move inline styling to the CSS file. I think it's baffling and I have not found advice as to how to do that."<br /><br />If you have placed an inline style such as:<br /><br /><b><p style="line-height: 18px;"></b><br /><br />then all you have to do to move that to the style sheet is change <b><p style="line-height: 18px;"&ChristianZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10926523379961771939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-31688667838203011562009-08-04T03:59:14.623-07:002009-08-04T03:59:14.623-07:00No it's not working for me either.
I started t...No it's not working for me either.<br />I started to use CSS because I wanted to have text over an image and if there is a way to do it with tables I couldn't find it. I can now have text wherever I like, and also have a small image for example over another image, which gives a 3D effect. I do this by altering the CSS positioning data and it has been a long uphill task requiring trial andggeoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02017569012623523830noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-69386284684730931502009-08-03T11:09:51.321-07:002009-08-03T11:09:51.321-07:00I'm trying to leave a tip on your site but tha...I'm trying to leave a tip on your site but that tipjoy thing isn't working for me.ChristianZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10926523379961771939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-19703892379885495532009-08-03T09:33:53.848-07:002009-08-03T09:33:53.848-07:00It's NOT hard for me to create and it is EASIE...It's NOT hard for me to create and it is EASIER for me to maintain. I guess I'm the one person in the universe that that is true for. And you've seen me talk little about accessibility and SEO.ChristianZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10926523379961771939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-64769641531188946002009-08-03T09:29:00.932-07:002009-08-03T09:29:00.932-07:00> However YOU perceive it, why would you questi...> However YOU perceive it, why would you question the judgment of somebody for whom it is not hard?<br /><br />Because there's no BENEFIT. I'm not opposed to doing things the hard way if there's a payoff down the road. But in the case of layout with CSS there is no payoff. In fact, there's an anti-payoff: the site becomes harder to maintain. I now need to find and hire veryRonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-32052016869127857402009-08-03T09:14:23.408-07:002009-08-03T09:14:23.408-07:00"Why are there so many books about how to do ..."Why are there so many books about how to do layout in CSS, but so few on how to do layout using tables?"<br /><br />There's a really good answer for that and one of these days you'll figure it out.<br /><br />"It's because getting it right is HARD!"<br /><br />However YOU perceive it, why would you question the judgment of somebody for whom it is not hard? There&#ChristianZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10926523379961771939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-34546410809883046462009-08-03T09:09:56.322-07:002009-08-03T09:09:56.322-07:00> So you've overlooked all the times when I...> So you've overlooked all the times when I and others have said it's not hard for them.<br /><br />No, I haven't. YOU have overlooked the fact that just because it's easy for YOU doesn't mean it's easy in an absolute sense. Everything is easy once you know how to do it. Breaking 100 in golf is easy for Tiger Woods. Swimming 100 meters in under a minute is easy for Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-27654153356449678992009-08-03T08:24:25.849-07:002009-08-03T08:24:25.849-07:00"No, I meant what I said. And what I said was..."No, I meant what I said. And what I said was that I question the *judgement* (not the wisdom) of someone who would uncritically use CSS for layout just because some standards body says they should."<br /><br />I never said that's the only reason. I said that's the way I and others happen to do it and it just so happens to coincide w/ what the W3C recommends. And why would you ChristianZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10926523379961771939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-74466961404083832022009-08-03T01:17:43.515-07:002009-08-03T01:17:43.515-07:00just "do things right":
last time i had ...just "do things right":<br />last time i had to built a website, the user wanted pictures of various sizes to be vertically and horizontally centered on the left side of a webpage that looks a little like a book ( on the right side there's text):<br />Of course i wanted to do the arrangement of my elements (as always) with CSS!<br />Every working CSS-Code needed the height of the Stefan Kellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06655150933670777090noreply@blogger.com