tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post7602274630323774102..comments2024-03-18T17:28:44.693-07:00Comments on Rondam Ramblings: A "conversation" with Tim KellerRonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-22802286341304194162008-05-07T17:49:00.000-07:002008-05-07T17:49:00.000-07:00Well, by "straw" I mean that he probably would hav...Well, by "straw" I mean that he probably would have been able to come up with better responses than you give him. :-) However, my criticism is probably unavoidable for this rhetorical style.asdfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04300268293562759791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-90691549593669750182008-05-07T16:58:00.000-07:002008-05-07T16:58:00.000-07:00[wrf3] Perhaps that's because you don't have the r...[wrf3] Perhaps that's because you don't have the right definition of "good" and "evil".<BR/><BR/><B>R</B>: <I>Nope, that's not it.</I><BR/><BR/>I look forward to seeing your definitions. Earlier, you implied that there is an objective external standard of morality. I'm curious to see the flaw in your reasoning.<BR/><BR/>[wrf3] If we really are living in a simulation {see below} then you have towrf3https://www.blogger.com/profile/04657932934353372526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-43699147720558338662008-05-07T16:15:00.000-07:002008-05-07T16:15:00.000-07:00> Hmm... so now you've taken to arguing with imagi...> Hmm... so now you've taken to arguing with imaginary straw men? :-P<BR/><BR/>Imaginary, perhaps. Straw, no. Everything any of my Tim Keller's say is defensible in terms of something the real Tim Keller has written. (Even the non-Calvanist doctrines I have him offer are defensible in light of the fact that he prominently and necessarily took his Calvanist hat off to write The Reason for God.)Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-35914602307560669002008-05-07T13:19:00.000-07:002008-05-07T13:19:00.000-07:00Hmm... so now you've taken to arguing with imagina...Hmm... so now you've taken to arguing with imaginary straw men? :-P<BR/><BR/>Actually, I have a challenge for you as a computer scientist, skilled in the ways of information processing.<BR/><BR/>Invent a manageable debating website.<BR/><BR/>You could call it "wikidebates" etc, and it would be a huge hit once it gets critical mass. The problem, as I see it, is that there are too many subargumentsasdfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04300268293562759791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-52144229981320869402008-05-06T21:37:00.000-07:002008-05-06T21:37:00.000-07:00> Perhaps that's because you don't have the right ...> Perhaps that's because you don't have the right definition of "good" and "evil".<BR/><BR/>Nope, that's not it.<BR/><BR/>> If we really are living in a simulation {see below} then you have to deal with these questions.<BR/><BR/>No, I don't. Whether or not we are "really" in a simulation is irrelevant.<BR/><BR/>> Actually, it would be rather like asking whether George Lucas is good from Anakin Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-78828154933185128642008-05-06T16:45:00.000-07:002008-05-06T16:45:00.000-07:00[wrf3] If you're really going to deal with this to...[wrf3] If you're really going to deal with this topic<BR/><BR/><B>R</B>: <I>That depends on what you mean by "this topic."</I><BR/><BR/>The topic of good and evil, aka morality.<BR/><BR/><I>I am not going to deal with the topic of whether God is good because I have no idea.</I><BR/><BR/>Perhaps that's because you don't have the right definition of "good" and "evil".<BR/><BR/><I>My personal beliefwrf3https://www.blogger.com/profile/04657932934353372526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-17068675883636610552008-05-06T07:12:00.000-07:002008-05-06T07:12:00.000-07:00> If you're really going to deal with this topicTh...> If you're really going to deal with this topic<BR/><BR/>That depends on what you mean by "this topic." I am not going to deal with the topic of whether God is good because I have no idea. My personal belief is that God (by which is meant the God of Abraham) does not exist, so asking whether God is good is rather like asking whether Anakin Skywalker is good. That question has to be dealt withRonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-31013148767077674972008-05-06T06:08:00.000-07:002008-05-06T06:08:00.000-07:00[wrf3] Why is it an unbeliever seems to have less...[wrf3] Why is it an unbeliever seems to have less trouble with this passage [Isa 45:7] than many believers I've come across?<BR/><BR/><B>R</B>: <I>Because we unbelievers are not hobbled by the preconception that God is good, so the fact that God proclaims himself to be the author of evil causes us no cognitive dissonance.</I><BR/><BR/>If you're really going to deal with this topic, instead of wrf3https://www.blogger.com/profile/04657932934353372526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-75625587965553143672008-05-05T21:32:00.000-07:002008-05-05T21:32:00.000-07:00> Why is it an unbeliever seems to have less troub...> Why is it an unbeliever seems to have less trouble with this passage than many believers I've come across?<BR/><BR/>Because we unbelievers are not hobbled by the preconception that God is good, so the fact that God proclaims himself to be the author of evil causes us no cognitive dissonance. (To the contrary, it seems entirely consistent with God's character. To me, the God of Abraham seems Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-66684464045023393232008-05-04T12:11:00.000-07:002008-05-04T12:11:00.000-07:00[wrf3] What makes someone morally right?R Too long...[wrf3] What makes someone morally right?<BR/><BR/><B>R</B> <I>Too long to answer in a comment. I'll write a separate post about that soon.</I><BR/>I agree that it's too long to answer in a comment. I've barely started on my own blog but haven't had time to work on it, lately.<BR/><BR/>[wrf3] Is God morally right because he is "one bad motherfucker", or is there some other reason?<BR/><BR/><B>R</wrf3https://www.blogger.com/profile/04657932934353372526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-38501355373389199912008-05-04T09:40:00.000-07:002008-05-04T09:40:00.000-07:00> What makes someone morally right?Too long to ans...> What makes someone morally right?<BR/><BR/>Too long to answer in a comment. I'll write a separate post about that soon.<BR/><BR/>> Is God morally right because he is "one bad motherfucker", or is there some other reason?<BR/><BR/>That's not a fair question to pose to someone who doesn't believe in God :-) I'll just make the observation that if we don't have free will then there's no point in Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-24235673290966362982008-05-03T20:12:00.000-07:002008-05-03T20:12:00.000-07:00[wrf3] First, as a parent, I sometimes allow confu...[wrf3] First, as a parent, I sometimes allow confusion among my children. The struggle for understanding is a part of the growing process.<BR/><BR/><B>R</B>: <I>I'm glad you weren't my parent.</I><BR/>My children aren't displeased with me. Today we celebrated my second son's graduation Magna Cum Laude from Gegoria Tech with a Bachelor's in Mechanical Engineering. He'll be going on to the wrf3https://www.blogger.com/profile/04657932934353372526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-49085371164157886682008-05-02T20:00:00.000-07:002008-05-02T20:00:00.000-07:00> I'm going to skip this, if I may, as it's yet an...> I'm going to skip this, if I may, as it's yet another long treatise. If not, let me know<BR/><BR/>LOL! You are, of course, free to do as you wish.<BR/><BR/>> First, as a parent, I sometimes allow confusion among my children. The struggle for understanding is a part of the growing process.<BR/><BR/>I'm glad you weren't my parent.<BR/><BR/>> Second, knowledge is important and God commands the Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-25989001209910609722008-05-02T18:40:00.000-07:002008-05-02T18:40:00.000-07:00R [There is a problem] with Christianity as a solu...<B>R</B> [There is a problem] with Christianity as a solution to the problem of the societal rift between faith and secularism.<BR/><BR/>I'm going to skip this, if I may, as it's yet another long treatise. If not, let me know, and I'll try to find time this weekend to jot some things down.<BR/><BR/>[wrf3] if Christianity is true, and God changes people, then why does He allow such confusion wrf3https://www.blogger.com/profile/04657932934353372526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-47957349387751196882008-05-02T09:08:00.000-07:002008-05-02T09:08:00.000-07:00> A problem with what?With Christianity as a solut...> A problem with what?<BR/><BR/>With Christianity as a solution to the problem of the societal rift between faith and secularism.<BR/><BR/>> if Christianity is true, and God changes people, then why does He allow such confusion among His people?<BR/><BR/>Exactly. I can't wait to hear your answers.<BR/><BR/>> But there is the equivalent of CLTL2 that says otherwise.<BR/><BR/>You mean <A HREF="httpRonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-54464056061763790832008-05-02T07:41:00.000-07:002008-05-02T07:41:00.000-07:00I really am going to disappear until later this ev...I really am going to disappear until later this evening. Really. I do have work to do...<BR/><BR/><B>R</B>: <I>"Defect" is not the word I would choose. It's certainly a source of confusion, which seems to me to be a "problem" even if it isn't a "defect".</I><BR/><BR/>A problem with what? Christianity, or people? The more I read Jesus and St. Paul, the more convinced I become that Christianitywrf3https://www.blogger.com/profile/04657932934353372526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-91231304223829544842008-05-02T06:53:00.000-07:002008-05-02T06:53:00.000-07:00> Surely this isn't a defect of Christianity, is i...> Surely this isn't a defect of Christianity, is it?<BR/><BR/>"Defect" is not the word I would choose. It's certainly a source of confusion, which seems to me to be a "problem" even if it isn't a "defect".<BR/><BR/>> Jesus died for our sins and rose again. That's enough.<BR/><BR/>That would be great if all Christians could agree that that's enough, but not all Christians do. In particular, someRonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-39179160937354865822008-05-02T06:47:00.000-07:002008-05-02T06:47:00.000-07:00> There are a wide spectrum of CP. Our David is on...> There are a wide spectrum of CP. Our David is one of the more servere case due to his brain damage from a skull fracture.<BR/><BR/>I am very sorry.<BR/><BR/>> Please do not taking my response and case as a challenge to your belief and world view system. How would you find strength in these kinds of life problem?<BR/><BR/>I don't take it as a challenge. It's a perfectly fair question, but to Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-80919970650914801102008-05-02T06:20:00.000-07:002008-05-02T06:20:00.000-07:00Ron: I plead guilty to mixing and matching Christ...<B>Ron</B>: <I>I plead guilty to mixing and matching Christian theologies. (That's one of the problems with responding to Christian theologies -- there are just so darned many of them.)</I><BR/><BR/>This was touched on in the main post, too, and is one of the many things I skipped over. Surely this isn't a defect of Christianity, is it? My first acquaintance with you was through your wrf3https://www.blogger.com/profile/04657932934353372526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-23074529134017830612008-05-01T22:51:00.000-07:002008-05-01T22:51:00.000-07:00Hi Ron,There are a wide spectrum of CP. Our David...Hi Ron,<BR/><BR/>There are a wide spectrum of CP. Our David is one of the more servere case due to his brain damage from a skull fracture.<BR/><BR/>Please do not taking my response and case as a challenge to your belief and world view system.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for not being a "strident atheist", I am not a "strident Christian" either. I have no interest in coerce you into faith at all. I simply mar13https://www.blogger.com/profile/09791122927647295136noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-57709213987454954522008-05-01T21:25:00.000-07:002008-05-01T21:25:00.000-07:00> The kid clearly has no information processing po...> The kid clearly has no information processing power.<BR/><BR/>Not true at all. I remember very clearly the first time I met someone with cerebral palsy. I was very intimidated until someone explained to me that they were perfectly normal in every respect except that they didn't have control of their muscles. People really need to be made more aware of this. People with CP can think just as Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-84512306364081237782008-05-01T20:34:00.000-07:002008-05-01T20:34:00.000-07:00Ron, I hope you don't mind a P.S. If you have a s...Ron, I hope you don't mind a P.S. If you have a spare hour and a half you might find C. S. Lewis' <I>The Great Divorce</I> interesting. It relates to the "problem" of finding God.wrf3https://www.blogger.com/profile/04657932934353372526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-68181832622159836492008-05-01T20:27:00.000-07:002008-05-01T20:27:00.000-07:00mar13 wrote: I agree with you that unbelief is *re...<B>mar13</B> wrote: <I>I agree with you that unbelief is *reasonable* as well, and vice versa. That's why we have free-will, right?</I><BR/><BR/>I see that T also brings in free-will. FWIW, a Calvinist, and many Lutherans, would argue that, regarding belief, man does not have free will. <BR/><BR/><B>R</B> observed: <I>You cannot prove a negative.</I> That's not absolutely true. Wiles, after wrf3https://www.blogger.com/profile/04657932934353372526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-80078770141236010542008-05-01T17:54:00.000-07:002008-05-01T17:54:00.000-07:00Ron,Uumm, I would probably be no match for your re...Ron,<BR/><BR/>Uumm, I would probably be no match for your reasoning prowess (or anyone who could challenge the pro at their tuff).<BR/><BR/>But let’s consider the practicality of life here. A kid who is now living with me suffers from severe Cerebral Palsy a few months after he was born (see video here: http://video.xanga.com/I12Know/7f390470318/video.html ). Our Doctor said that he would be mar13https://www.blogger.com/profile/09791122927647295136noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-58231150699152321382008-05-01T13:21:00.000-07:002008-05-01T13:21:00.000-07:00> Actually there are a way which make your T1 clos...> Actually there are a way which make your T1 closer to the real Keller but I am afraid it would be quite an undertaking<BR/><BR/>Indeed, and I don't have time for that. (Yes, I am aware of the irony here.) But the point of the piece was to challenge Tim Keller, not to channel him.<BR/><BR/>> and he wouldn't call your theory on information "ridiculous"<BR/><BR/>Yes, I admit putting that line inRonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.com