tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post5711812838543946472..comments2024-03-18T17:28:44.693-07:00Comments on Rondam Ramblings: Why the data do not support profiling MuslimsRonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-88381516260514287532015-07-18T16:09:50.158-07:002015-07-18T16:09:50.158-07:00> Are you making one or both arguments?
I got...> Are you making one or both arguments?<br /><br />I got lost in all the antecedents.<br /><br />My position is that Harris's program of profiling "Muslims, or anyone who looks like they could conceivably be Muslim" is a Really Bad Idea (tm) for multiple reasons. Those reasons include, but are not limited to:<br /><br />1. There is no way to tell whether someone is a Muslim byRonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-21261089495096728102015-07-17T18:44:42.827-07:002015-07-17T18:44:42.827-07:00> I think it's not only legitimate, but *re...> I think it's not only legitimate, but *respectful* to judge someone based on what they actually say rather than on what you think they believe.<br /><br />There is no such thing as "what they actually say" having meaning; there is:<br /><br /> (1) what a person meant to communicate<br /> (2) the words that person used<br /> (3) how you interpreted those words<br /><Lukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18395549142176242491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-80312630930017216752015-07-17T18:23:27.004-07:002015-07-17T18:23:27.004-07:00>> It doesn't really matter what he beli...>> It doesn't really matter what he believes.<br /><br />> I don't see how it is legitimate to treat a person or his/her arguments this way.<br /><br />Huh? I think it's not only legitimate, but *respectful* to judge someone based on what they actually say rather than on what you think they believe.<br /><br />> We're looking for ways for law enforcement to make Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-82181868310929865272015-07-17T17:42:02.081-07:002015-07-17T17:42:02.081-07:00> It doesn't really matter what he believes...> It doesn't really matter what he believes.<br /><br />I don't see how it is legitimate to treat a person or his/her arguments this way.<br /><br />> You have to stop mixing up branches of the argument.<br /><br />If ISIS threats are significant enough compared to the total threat, the correct version of my argument (I will only carefully go through our conversation if necessary) Lukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18395549142176242491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-49209689323731124252015-07-12T23:33:47.172-07:002015-07-12T23:33:47.172-07:00> I doubt Harris believes such a thing.
It do...> I doubt Harris believes such a thing.<br /><br />It doesn't really matter what he believes. What matters is that he specifically cites the MTC as an example of a group that should be exempt from scrutiny.<br /><br />> If the chance of a given terrorist being from ISIS is sufficiently high, I don't see how it is vacuous at all.<br /><br />You have to stop mixing up branches of Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-21132507764965379722015-07-12T18:20:26.505-07:002015-07-12T18:20:26.505-07:00> > Just being Muslim ... is not enough.
&g...> > Just being Muslim ... is not enough.<br /><br />> 1. Harris never says this. He says: profile "Muslims, or anyone who looks like they could conceivably be Muslim", period, end of story.<br /><br />From <a href="http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/in-defense-of-profiling" rel="nofollow">In Defense of Profiling</a>:<br /><br />>> We should profile Muslims, or anyone who Lukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18395549142176242491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-5320186325516366702015-07-12T18:20:02.390-07:002015-07-12T18:20:02.390-07:00> I have no idea what Sam Harris really believe...> I have no idea what Sam Harris really believes. (This is a big part of the point I am trying to make, BTW.) All I know is what he said. And what he said is (among other things):<br />> <br />> "Every moment spent frisking the Mormon Tabernacle Choir subtracts from the scrutiny paid to more likely threats. Who could fail to understand this?"<br />> <br />> I think "Lukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18395549142176242491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-91699342277117829152015-07-12T10:20:25.657-07:002015-07-12T10:20:25.657-07:00> Do you really think he believes this?
I have...> Do you really think he believes this?<br /><br />I have no idea what Sam Harris really believes. (This is a big part of the point I am trying to make, BTW.) All I know is what he said. And what he said is (among other things):<br /><br />"Every moment spent frisking the Mormon Tabernacle Choir subtracts from the scrutiny paid to more likely threats. Who could fail to understand this?Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-76353216937657467352015-07-12T09:55:41.093-07:002015-07-12T09:55:41.093-07:00> No. His argument (as best I can make it out -...> No. His argument (as best I can make it out -- it's pretty incoherent as he presents it) is: most terrorists are Muslims (which is true), therefore it makes no sense to expend resources searching white people at airports (which is false).<br /><br />Do you really think he believes this? Perhaps he believes that we should expend <i>more</i> resources searching Arabs than white people. Lukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18395549142176242491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-6434494304588121502015-07-12T09:36:14.480-07:002015-07-12T09:36:14.480-07:00> Has Sam Harris ever said that even 1% of Musl...> Has Sam Harris ever said that even 1% of Muslims are terrorists—not to mention 100%?<br /><br />No. His argument (as best I can make it out -- it's pretty incoherent as he presents it) is: most terrorists are Muslims (which is true), therefore it makes no sense to expend resources searching white people at airports (which is false).<br /><br />> That's not the function of ceterisRonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-26214548796118767252015-07-12T08:42:11.929-07:002015-07-12T08:42:11.929-07:00> Just because one course of action is better t...> Just because one course of action is better than another it does not follow that it is a good course of action. They might *both* be horrible courses of action.<br /><br />I don't see how this is a response; as far as I can tell you produced a straw man. Has Sam Harris ever said that even 1% of Muslims are terrorists—not to mention 100%?<br /><br />> But all else is *not* equal. Lukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18395549142176242491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-64929916699261886422015-07-11T17:59:21.125-07:002015-07-11T17:59:21.125-07:00> I don't understand why you keep bringing ...> I don't understand why you keep bringing up this kind of argument.<br /><br />Just because one course of action is better than another it does not follow that it is a good course of action. They might *both* be horrible courses of action.<br /><br />> ceteris paribus<br /><br />But all else is *not* equal. Profiling Muslims has a very significant societal cost, namely, the Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-66386988195726464432015-07-11T13:18:36.231-07:002015-07-11T13:18:36.231-07:00> Yes, because the odds of a typical American b...> Yes, because the odds of a typical American being a terrorist is vanishingly small.<br /><br />I don't understand why you keep bringing up this kind of argument. Profiling, according to my understanding, does not say that "Muslim = terrorist", "Jew = thief", etc. Doing this would be <i>stereotyping</i>. Instead, the point of profiling seems to be to best expend your Lukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18395549142176242491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-51872972308729184902015-07-08T23:53:09.742-07:002015-07-08T23:53:09.742-07:00> Does your argument still stay exactly the sam...> Does your argument still stay exactly the same?<br /><br />Yes, because the odds of a typical American being a terrorist is vanishingly small. On average, there have been fewer than two domestic terrorist acts each year since 9/11. So the odds of any particular American committing a terrorist act in any given year is <0.0000001%. Improve those odds even by a factor of 7400 and you'Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-12806833567118095642015-07-08T20:04:07.859-07:002015-07-08T20:04:07.859-07:00What if there were enough Chapel Hill instances su...What if there were enough Chapel Hill instances such that one could statistically establish that an atheist is 200x as likely to commit terrorism as a Muslim, and 7400 times as likely as a typical American? Does your argument still stay exactly the same? It seems to me that your argument is intuitively predicated upon Chapel Hill <i>not</i> well-representing the true situation, that the Lukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18395549142176242491noreply@blogger.com