tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post347580740030437699..comments2024-03-18T17:28:44.693-07:00Comments on Rondam Ramblings: On the semantics of HTMLRonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comBlogger61125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-88476178834963171562013-01-16T16:39:27.470-08:002013-01-16T16:39:27.470-08:00Thanks for showing why the 'tables are redunda...Thanks for showing why the 'tables are redundant' crew are wrong, Ron. On the 'niggard' issue, here's what I suggest: if a black person is a miser, call her a jew. If jewish, call her a niggard. Everyone else, say they're misers.<br /><br />Never tell a Welshman he's welched on his debts. Call him a Scotsman. And a Scotsman, call him a CSS purist.rodmclaughlinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16624447034194152917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-10251634852851371472011-02-25T10:20:26.563-08:002011-02-25T10:20:26.563-08:00@Marcus: you're right - if it were actually po...@Marcus: you're right - if it were actually possible to REALLY layout a web page!<br /><br />Fundamentally, you can't lay out an HTML document: its display WILL and MUST change depending on the media showing it - something as simple as a different screen size has to be taken into account.<br /><br />And you've put a big finger on the problem: you can't define the position of an Mitch074https://www.blogger.com/profile/12135436943850699968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-70247692825441010402011-02-25T04:46:26.011-08:002011-02-25T04:46:26.011-08:00I think we should perhaps specify exactly what HTM...I think we should perhaps specify exactly what HTML and CSS successfully accomplish and what they don't. HTML is good at logically (or "semantically") representing hypertext and CSS is good at styling flowed HTML elements. CSS is awful at expressing layout; so awful, in fact, that I think such attempts should be considered just as "hackish" as using table-based layouts.<brMarcus Tullius Cicerohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17088427616149542930noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-56602551301335187632010-12-19T02:13:16.830-08:002010-12-19T02:13:16.830-08:00@Mitch: It's about using what works, not about...@Mitch: It's about using what works, not about considering myself smart. Before coming to my previous posted opinion, I've looked at more than a few opinions on the pros and cons of both. So far I have yet to see that CSS is inherently superior to tables for layout.<br /><br />Mind you, when I use tables for layout, they don't become a convoluted mess that's impossible to figureS.Broadbenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04363231411291860936noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-8018819016356644142010-12-19T02:13:06.855-08:002010-12-19T02:13:06.855-08:00@Mitch: It's about using what works, not about...@Mitch: It's about using what works, not about considering myself smart. Before coming to my previous posted opinion, I've looked at more than a few opinions on the pros and cons of both. So far I have yet to see that CSS is inherently superior to tables for layout.<br /><br />Mind you, when I use tables for layout, they don't become a convoluted mess that's impossible to figureS.Broadbenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04363231411291860936noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-65109811812155074862010-12-18T12:12:25.677-08:002010-12-18T12:12:25.677-08:00@S.Broadbent: I'll sum up your post.
"I k...@S.Broadbent: I'll sum up your post.<br />"I know how to use tables, and I can't figure CSS. So, since I consider myself smart, and I don't understand CSS, then CSS is crap as it's too complicated".<br /><br />Second, "KISS": please inform me on the way to properly align the images at the bottom of a table cell in a XML document (I do mean, a XML document, not Mitch074https://www.blogger.com/profile/12135436943850699968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-82932411865685605962010-12-18T08:08:15.735-08:002010-12-18T08:08:15.735-08:00Having been working with html since the html 3 da...Having been working with html since the html 3 days, before CSS had any decent browser support, and not bothering or caring to wrap my head around CSS until relatively recently, I've found CSS to be more of a pain for layout than the simplicity of tables.<br /><br />If I need to create a framework for a layout for a website, I can throw together one in about 2 minutes and not have to worry S.Broadbenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04363231411291860936noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-7308882993748728482010-11-15T09:53:21.673-08:002010-11-15T09:53:21.673-08:00Join the Dark Side, Luke.Join the Dark Side, Luke.Mitch074https://www.blogger.com/profile/12135436943850699968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-87069775242772178022010-11-15T06:17:21.928-08:002010-11-15T06:17:21.928-08:00Hi it's me again (I posted the last three &quo...Hi it's me again (I posted the last three "ANONYMOUS" comments above).<br /><br />I have some AMAZING news! Having played around with Mozilla's KOMPOZER free software, I started understanding CSS. I have now COMPLETELY changed my view from being a HTML TABLES fan to a COMPLETE CSS convert.<br /><br />I have to say, after sitting down for 18 hours one day, I got to grips with theAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-77442851077229352912010-11-05T10:22:28.354-07:002010-11-05T10:22:28.354-07:00> Can't believe that this article was writt...> Can't believe that this article was written nearly 2 years ago and is still pulling in comments!<br /><br />That makes two of us.Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-13397808790241233842010-11-05T10:19:55.996-07:002010-11-05T10:19:55.996-07:00Can't believe that this article was written ne...Can't believe that this article was written nearly 2 years ago and is still pulling in comments! Also Mitch074 good point--I see that Google uses it on their homepage but not on Gmail! (hadn't noticed that before).<br /><br />Well here is my take on all this...<br /><br />I found this blog that has listed all the top 30 sites that still use tables for layout:<br /><br />http://nlapse.com/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-32237358067273967982010-11-05T08:33:59.776-07:002010-11-05T08:33:59.776-07:00Google use tables for their front age, as they wan...Google use tables for their front age, as they want the greatest compatibility possible with as many browsers as possible - including all Netscape 4-compatible ones found on mobiles.<br />However, as soon as you enter one of their advanced apps (say, Gmail), then it's table-less HTML5 (DOCTYPE html without DTD) all the way.<br /><br />Their message is actually: "if you have pages that Mitch074https://www.blogger.com/profile/12135436943850699968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-8954618110985611902010-11-05T03:09:24.528-07:002010-11-05T03:09:24.528-07:00Yeah in addition to the comment above that mention...Yeah in addition to the comment above that mentioned Pixar.com and teNriA.com, I noticed that the BIGGEST search engine in the world GOOGLE.com uses HTML TABLES for layout!!! And so does YAHOO.com!!!<br /><br />These guys are obviously top of their game and still use tables--so what does that say? <br /><br />Perhaps it is all hearsay and a myth that CSS is better for SEO and that tables will putAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-27657716964173243722010-11-05T01:10:06.896-07:002010-11-05T01:10:06.896-07:00I maintain and fix websites for a living.
Table ba...I maintain and fix websites for a living.<br />Table based layouts are a PAIN: you can't use images or other inline-block elements in a table without getting a gap at the bottom - or you need to, WITH CSS, set line-height at 0 on each table cell that contains images only.<br />The other solution is to use an Almost Standard parsing DOCTYPE - which is limiting, as you can't then enjoy the Mitch074https://www.blogger.com/profile/12135436943850699968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-84500614488619079492010-11-04T18:18:59.887-07:002010-11-04T18:18:59.887-07:00This is an excellent article. I noticed two websit...This is an excellent article. I noticed two websites using HTML tables: <br /><br />1) Pixar Animation Studios http://www.Pixar.com <br /><br />and<br /><br />2) teNriA Book Publishing http://www.teNriA.com<br /><br />With the increasing capabilities of modern mobile / cell phones and tablet computers (iPad) being able to browse using fully functional internet browsers, the CSS compatibility Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-65719073733511773242010-08-09T11:20:34.238-07:002010-08-09T11:20:34.238-07:00Let this thing rest: there's now a way to have...Let this thing rest: there's now a way to have your cake and eat it too.<br /><br />You merely need to declare a container as a table, and its children as table rows and table cells to do a table-like layout in CSS. That wasn't possible with IE 6 (which is now, for all intents and purpose, dead), but IE 7, Firefox 3 and all others can now apply table-like layout to non-table elements, Mitch074https://www.blogger.com/profile/12135436943850699968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-66353735022483217262010-08-09T07:38:25.590-07:002010-08-09T07:38:25.590-07:00What about that one?
* two horizontally centered ...What about that one?<br /><br />* two horizontally centered columns with different widths, full height and different background colours<br /><br />* the text in the first column is aligned to the upper left corner<br /><br />* the text in the second column is aligned to the lower right corner<br /><br />http://www.arminbwagner.com/text/the_tableless_table/examples/Arminhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04981136965070438208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-41001504752430468832009-10-18T01:26:15.146-07:002009-10-18T01:26:15.146-07:00Good grief! This is like playing wack-a-mole. Ev...Good grief! This is like playing wack-a-mole. Every time I point out a problem with a CSS layout, someone comes along and says, "But all you have to do is X." And yet, no matter what X is, there is always another problem. This is why no two CSS advocates can agree on what X is. My patience with this game is beginning to wear thin. Overflow:scroll does NOT solve the problem. Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-67679932429596552072009-10-18T01:07:46.953-07:002009-10-18T01:07:46.953-07:00Not if he adds 'overflow:scroll'. Personal...Not if he adds 'overflow:scroll'. Personally, I also play with min/max-width and floats to make the layout adapt to the screen's or window's dimensions (making the menu float to the top or bottom is damn useful for vertical, narrow outputs - like smarthones).Mitch074https://www.blogger.com/profile/12135436943850699968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-45440340248309997552009-10-17T19:42:42.943-07:002009-10-17T19:42:42.943-07:00Your solution fails if you add a background color ...Your solution fails if you add a background color or a wide image to any of the content sections.Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-6821349800322274852009-10-17T18:53:31.461-07:002009-10-17T18:53:31.461-07:00Ron,
Since a Google search on "css layout&qu...Ron,<br /><br />Since a Google search on "css layout" led me to your article at www.flownet.com/ron/css-rant.html and your opinions on markup semantics, I invite you and your readers to take a look at http://exprdev1.dca.expr.net/css-3-panels.html. This method of layout is extremely simple, works in all modern browsers, and with styles disabled the content remains semantically and Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357695735514199738noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-49022825765860830652009-06-29T13:00:19.936-07:002009-06-29T13:00:19.936-07:00> apologies about the previous comment
No worr...> apologies about the previous comment<br /><br />No worries.Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-84444983994941259062009-06-29T12:51:07.148-07:002009-06-29T12:51:07.148-07:00@Ron (apologies about the previous comment: re-rea...@Ron (apologies about the previous comment: re-reading it, I noticed it could sound condescending; I was actually rather embarrassed WRT my comments' length): I guess that you approach layout as organizing siblings inside a DOM tree; it's true, CSS doesn't do much positioning between siblings (at least in CSS 2.1) apart from inline, block and float.<br /><br />And, well, here I agree Mitch074https://www.blogger.com/profile/12135436943850699968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-1529636336239992852009-06-29T12:17:32.661-07:002009-06-29T12:17:32.661-07:00OK, let's try this again and see if I can rede...OK, let's try this again and see if I can redeem myself...<br /><br />> Personally, I don't: I was glad the day I discovered CSS to not have to remember how each browser declared fonts and colors in HTML parameters, and what colors were 'safe'. But then, to each his own.<br /><br />I think you may be interpreting my position overbroadly. I distinguish between <i>styling</i>, Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-43339489046368617132009-06-29T11:01:12.865-07:002009-06-29T11:01:12.865-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Mitch074https://www.blogger.com/profile/12135436943850699968noreply@blogger.com