tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post2452203801843745045..comments2024-03-18T17:28:44.693-07:00Comments on Rondam Ramblings: If a fetus is a person...Ronhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-10051876540124404872019-06-15T12:49:29.270-07:002019-06-15T12:49:29.270-07:00@Ron:
> Can you point me to even one candidate...@Ron:<br /><br />> Can you point me to even one candidate's actually policy statement that "push[es] for late term abortion"?<br /><br />To add to what's already been provided on this issue, here's an overall summary by Jeremy W. Peters at the <i>NYT</i>:<br /><br />>> In the Democratic Party, where politicians could once straddle the abortion divide by airing Lukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18395549142176242491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-86972525293669809592019-06-04T19:46:16.881-07:002019-06-04T19:46:16.881-07:00your implantation criterion does solve the "p...<i>your implantation criterion does solve the "problem" of frozen embryos, but it does not solve the problem that most people on the pro-life side are emotionally invested in the left-begins-at-conception rhetoric.</i><br /><br />True.<br /><br /><i>In a way, the fetal-heartbeat crowd has the Right Answer, they're just focused on the wrong organ.</i><br /><br />It seems like the Peter Donishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09122769947782402203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-36405874429050008522019-06-04T08:17:11.883-07:002019-06-04T08:17:11.883-07:00@Peter:
> If you want to talk about the partic...@Peter:<br /><br />> If you want to talk about the particular subset of pro-lifers<br /><br />Well, this post was specifically addressed to those tho deploy the argument that abortion should be illegal because "life begins at conception" and hence a fetus (or an embryo or a blastocyst or a fertilized egg) is a person. (Look again at the title of the post.) I daresay that's a Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-73614813990069556222019-06-03T12:14:27.428-07:002019-06-03T12:14:27.428-07:00Let any group of people become large enough and th...<i>Let any group of people become large enough and there is no statement you can make that will apply to every single last one of them.</i><br /><br />Yes, which is why we shouldn't be making such statements.<br /><br />If you want to talk about the particular subset of pro-lifers that is the most vocal and is therefore driving the current policy positions of many Republicans, that's finePeter Donishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09122769947782402203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-79939558777321692872019-06-03T09:51:55.420-07:002019-06-03T09:51:55.420-07:00@Ron:
> > I have repeatedly seen respectabl...@Ron:<br /><br />> > I have repeatedly seen respectable people use this rhetorical strategy. Are you implying that you never use it?<br /><br />> If the enemy is an ass and a fool and a prating coxcomb, is it meet, think you, that we should also, look you, be an ass and a fool and a prating coxcomb? in your own conscience, now?<br />> <br />> (William Shakespeare, Henry V, Act 4, Lukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18395549142176242491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-35273749050557974722019-06-03T09:29:27.538-07:002019-06-03T09:29:27.538-07:00@Peter:
> The quotes I gave are advocating pre...@Peter:<br /><br />> The quotes I gave are advocating precisely that.<br /><br />I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree about that.<br /><br />> that would avoid the absurd consequences<br /><br />That would help a lot, yes. But you have apparently not fully taken on board the fact that the pro-life faction has no interest whatsoever in being reasonable.<br /><br />> I think Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-76302917113700790382019-06-03T08:39:53.776-07:002019-06-03T08:39:53.776-07:00Yes, definitely a "stupidly idea". 100%Yes, definitely a "stupidly idea". 100%Lukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18395549142176242491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-60868551688065081392019-06-03T08:39:23.997-07:002019-06-03T08:39:23.997-07:00@Ron:
> Context, dude. Re-read the OP.
Except...@Ron:<br /><br />> Context, dude. Re-read the OP.<br /><br />Except that question vs. statement was an irrelevant distinction; what was relevant was that they were both hypotheticals.<br /><br />> Yes. You're response was, essentially, "I think that's a stupid idea, and to illustrate just how stupid I think this idea is, here's a stupid idea of my own."<br /><br />I Lukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18395549142176242491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-88857690921221971712019-06-02T17:15:43.059-07:002019-06-02T17:15:43.059-07:00"Pro-life" is just a rhetorical smokescr...<i> "Pro-life" is just a rhetorical smokescreen to cover up the fact that their position is really about punishing women for being self-actualized sexual beings with minds of their own.</i><br /><br />Btw, this would seem to be more appropriate as a criticism of opposition to contraception. Uncoupling sex from procreation is the key enabler for people who want to be "Peter Donishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09122769947782402203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-27388298723514029402019-06-02T17:12:49.954-07:002019-06-02T17:12:49.954-07:00The anti-choice side wants to strike that balance ...<i>The anti-choice side wants to strike that balance entirely in favor of the child from the moment of conception. That is an extreme position and leads to all manner of absurd consequences if you really take their position seriously.</i><br /><br />True, but suppose that they shifted their ground to put the bright line at implantation, instead of conception? As I noted in a previous post, that Peter Donishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09122769947782402203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-86818972009652524182019-06-02T16:54:38.985-07:002019-06-02T16:54:38.985-07:00I don't think any of them advocate expanding o...<i>I don't think any of them advocate expanding on the right to choose beyond the standards set down in Roe.</i><br /><br />The quotes I gave are advocating precisely that. Past viability, there is no right to choose; abortion is only allowed if it's necessary to save the life or health of the mother, and the woman doesn't make that determination, a doctor does. That's what the Peter Donishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09122769947782402203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-6515894722554678062019-06-02T14:22:45.353-07:002019-06-02T14:22:45.353-07:00@Luke:
> This doesn't look like "a qu...@Luke:<br /><br />> This doesn't look like "a question"<br /><br />Context, dude. Re-read the OP.<br /><br />> you were presenting a hypothetical and I responded with a hypothetical<br /><br />Yes. You're response was, essentially, "I think that's a stupid idea, and to illustrate just how stupid I think this idea is, here's a stupid idea of my own."<br Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-57032208657990331952019-06-02T00:20:17.347-07:002019-06-02T00:20:17.347-07:00if life begins at conception
I can't resist p...<i>if life begins at conception</i><br /><br />I can't resist pointing out that if these new laws had adopted the alternative I gave an argument for in previous discussions--that the bright line should be at implantation, not conception--it would have neatly avoided the issue you raise in this post. :-)Peter Donishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09122769947782402203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-91413723610321435182019-06-01T20:55:33.279-07:002019-06-01T20:55:33.279-07:00Can you point me to even one candidate's actua...<i>Can you point me to even one candidate's actually policy statement that "push[es] for late term abortion"?</i><br /><br />They have framed the late term abortion issue as an issue of the woman's choice. But according to Roe v. Wade (and later follow-on decisions like Planned Parenthood v. Casey), it is no longer a matter of the woman's choice after a certain point (Peter Donishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09122769947782402203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-33135898820939898762019-06-01T10:11:01.100-07:002019-06-01T10:11:01.100-07:00> If you go back and read carefully you will se...> If you go back and read carefully you will see that I have not actually taken a position, I merely asked a question.<br /><br />This doesn't look like "a question": <a href="#c3642946768847323621" rel="nofollow">"I'm going to buy a cryogenic freezer and keep the little darlings in my home. They will, after all, be my children."</a> But the most important matter isLukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18395549142176242491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-86380399486318444072019-06-01T09:44:59.810-07:002019-06-01T09:44:59.810-07:00@Luke:
> I declined to defend my position more...@Luke:<br /><br />> I declined to defend my position more than you have defended your own position.<br /><br />If you go back and read carefully you will see that I have not actually taken a position, I merely asked a question.<br /><br />> Unfortunately, I think this model fits way too much of the data.<br /><br />Then we agree.<br /><br />> Take pro-life people at their word and Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-41745180523961469812019-05-31T11:02:18.328-07:002019-05-31T11:02:18.328-07:00What are some good examples of this?
Um, pretty m...<i>What are some good examples of this?</i><br /><br />Um, pretty much every Democrat that's running for President? Not to mention the positions Democrats have taken on recent bills, such as the one in Virginia.<br />Peter Donishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09122769947782402203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-76242769263059799522019-05-31T08:12:22.912-07:002019-05-31T08:12:22.912-07:00> Luke: I think my proposal is about as realist...> <a href="https://blog.rongarret.info/2019/05/if-fetus-is-person.html?showComment=1559148942296#c2647519368982710296" rel="nofollow">Luke</a>: I think my proposal is about as realistic as your proposal, so I don't see any need to explicate further.<br /><br />> <a href="https://blog.rongarret.info/2019/05/if-fetus-is-person.html?showComment=1559149953962#c4218547409441593506" rel="Lukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18395549142176242491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-84586707004646463842019-05-31T07:51:20.328-07:002019-05-31T07:51:20.328-07:00@Luke:
> > I don't see any need to exp...@Luke:<br /><br />> > I don't see any need to explicate further.<br /><br />> The last refuge of the defender of the untenable position.<br /><br />You declined to defend your position, and I opined that this is because your position is indefensible. If you want to call that an insult, I suppose that's your prerogative. I call it a plausible explanation of the observed data.<Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-45170123642351295182019-05-31T06:52:21.962-07:002019-05-31T06:52:21.962-07:00@Peter Donis
> … the recent Democratic push fo...@Peter Donis<br /><br />> … the recent Democratic push for late term abortion.<br /><br />What are some good examples of this?Lukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18395549142176242491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-40758572856610301242019-05-30T13:32:55.302-07:002019-05-30T13:32:55.302-07:00Anti-choice factions have been very much emboldene...<i>Anti-choice factions have been very much emboldened by Donald Trump and his judicial appointments.</i><br /><br />They've also been emboldened by the recent Democratic push for late term abortion. I frankly can't understand what the Democrats are thinking on this one. If you want to uphold Roe v. Wade, that's one thing. But Roe v. Wade jurisprudence always drew a line after which Peter Donishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09122769947782402203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-63262857623388071012019-05-30T10:35:13.311-07:002019-05-30T10:35:13.311-07:00> Insult? What insult?
"The last refuge o...> Insult? What insult?<br /><br /><a href="https://blog.rongarret.info/2019/05/if-fetus-is-person.html?showComment=1559149953962#c4218547409441593506" rel="nofollow">"The last refuge of the defender of the untenable position."</a><br /><br />> BTW, I certainly hope you're right and that embryonic personhood will not be enshrined into law. I do not share your optimism that thisLukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18395549142176242491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-80301993917806158222019-05-29T12:23:20.905-07:002019-05-29T12:23:20.905-07:00Insult? What insult?
BTW, I certainly hope you&#...Insult? What insult?<br /><br />BTW, I certainly hope you're right and that embryonic personhood will not be enshrined into law. I do not share your optimism that this is "unrealistic". Anti-choice factions have been very much emboldened by Donald Trump and his judicial appointments.<br />Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-10289691311537496712019-05-29T12:09:28.912-07:002019-05-29T12:09:28.912-07:00I did read the title of your blog post, as well as...I did read the title of your blog post, as well as Publius' first comment. I think the scenario you've described is as "realistic" as is the scenario I've described. You haven't provided any reason to think otherwise, although you have offered an insult. I generally find that those who stoop to insults are the ones who have abandoned evidence, experiment, & reason. Lukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18395549142176242491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-66244650946911402542019-05-29T10:35:52.083-07:002019-05-29T10:35:52.083-07:00> Can you point to any adoption agency which d...> Can you point to any adoption agency which does this, today?<br /><br />Of course not. Today an embryo is still not a legal person. But if conservatives have their way, that could change.<br /><br />Maybe you need to re-read the title of this post?<br />Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.com