tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post9000096842579957709..comments2024-03-18T17:28:44.693-07:00Comments on Rondam Ramblings: You can't say that! It might be true!Ronhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-76155358240378027642017-08-25T22:34:36.206-07:002017-08-25T22:34:36.206-07:00Testosterone
No, the Google manifesto isn’t sexis...<b>Testosterone</b><br /><br /><a href="https://goo.gl/CCRdLk" rel="nofollow">No, the Google manifesto isn’t sexist or anti-diversity. It’s science</a><br /><i>As mentioned in the memo, gendered interests are predicted by exposure to prenatal testosterone – higher levels are associated with a preference for mechanically interesting things and occupations in adulthood. Lower levels are associated Publiushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00647613579979908182noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-76764215042894248652017-08-21T11:17:06.513-07:002017-08-21T11:17:06.513-07:00@Ron:
> 1. Women in the aggregate have trait X...@Ron:<br /><br />> 1. Women in the aggregate have trait X (what he actually said)<br />> 2. The women who work at Google are women (not what he actually said, but a not-unreasonable assumption), ergo...<br />> 3. The women who work at Google likely have trait X in the aggregate.<br /><br />This seems rather suspect until the various selection biases are ironed out. Here's why:<br /><Lukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18395549142176242491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-9192111158477834672017-08-13T22:54:43.677-07:002017-08-13T22:54:43.677-07:00@Will:
I interpolated Damore's remarks as fol...@Will:<br /><br />I interpolated Damore's remarks as follows:<br /><br />1. Women in the aggregate have trait X (what he actually said)<br /><br />2. The women who work at Google are women (not what he actually said, but a not-unreasonable assumption), ergo...<br /><br />3. The women who work at Google likely have trait X in the aggregate.<br />Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-29900763141541393042017-08-13T17:32:50.460-07:002017-08-13T17:32:50.460-07:00I took Damore's main point to be... "Comp...I took Damore's main point to be... "Company X employs less women than the general population" does not mean that Company X is discriminating in any way. It could just be that women (we're talking statistically here, think trends, not identities) don't like those roles. Take child care roles as an example in the other direction. While I don't disagree that there is Richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01776263107825495622noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-16944876893196364272017-08-13T17:22:44.629-07:002017-08-13T17:22:44.629-07:00> That's not true. He wrote:
>
>"...> That's not true. He wrote:<br />><br />>"[W]omen generally hav[e] a harder time ... leading"<br />><br />>"Women, on average, have more ... neuroticism (higher anxiety, lower stress tolerance) [than men]."<br /><br />Hm... perhaps I am missing something. He did indeed make claims about the population differences in terms of ability, and I acknowledged Willhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00112895093329193986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-88186495048130183152017-08-13T10:44:53.165-07:002017-08-13T10:44:53.165-07:00@O.:
> if I already think 'screw them'...@O.:<br /><br />> if I already think 'screw them', the fulfilling of that prophecy makes no difference to me.<br /><br />If it really makes *no difference* to you, then you are either completely unreasonable, or you have not taken on board what it means for a prophecy to be self-fulfilling.<br /><br />In the antebellum South it was illegal to teach slaves to read. As a result, very Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-32206305301133176582017-08-12T19:34:30.552-07:002017-08-12T19:34:30.552-07:00Most of Damore's arguments were not about wome...Most of Damore's arguments were not about women's mental capacity, just that because of biology they may be predisposed to certain types of roles. He also stressed that he was not saying that these make women deficient in any way, but just that there may be ways to change the way things are structured to be more inviting to them.Richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01776263107825495622noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-51097106037491560832017-08-12T17:22:27.870-07:002017-08-12T17:22:27.870-07:00Thank you for posting this. For all of the drama,...Thank you for posting this. For all of the drama, I've actually been pleased by how level-headed many liberals/progressives have been over this whole ordeal.<br /><br />But I think it's important to note that Sundar Pichai's interpretation of Damore's claim is arguably incorrect.<br /><br />Damore did not say that his female colleagues were less than capable because of their Willhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00112895093329193986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-73744749158520031822017-08-12T15:35:18.722-07:002017-08-12T15:35:18.722-07:00"Because treating them differently becomes a ..."Because treating them differently becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy."<br /><br />This doesn't present any incentive whatsoever for a person who believes any of what we might term less palatable/less rational beliefs to stop believing them. Put simply, if I already think 'screw them', the fulfilling of that prophecy makes no difference to me.<br /><br />"So the only O.https://www.blogger.com/profile/12852590480441556047noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-40307033527604807942017-08-12T13:38:16.761-07:002017-08-12T13:38:16.761-07:00I would say the price here was paid exclusively by...I would say the price here was paid exclusively by Damore.TheAccomodatorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04031661963432568470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-17074539505658807582017-08-12T12:12:30.070-07:002017-08-12T12:12:30.070-07:00> Should we patiently and endlessly refute the...> Should we patiently and endlessly refute them, and relitigate them every time they come up?<br /><br />Yes. That's the only way to win.<br /><br />> if black people are more likely to commit violent crimes, why on earth shouldn't we treat them differently?<br /><br />Because treating them differently becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Self-fulfilling prophecies are actually *Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-81797481925699915932017-08-12T10:07:44.271-07:002017-08-12T10:07:44.271-07:00Apologies for anything that sounds accusatory in m...Apologies for anything that sounds accusatory in my last comment (or the previous one). I sincerely did not mean to imply anything about how you feel about women or any group, or the consequences, and I don't believe you support/believe Damore's conclusions or any of the other less palatable stereotypes we've referred to so far ... not that you wouldn't be/aren't free to do so.O.https://www.blogger.com/profile/12852590480441556047noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-33042223412795652902017-08-12T09:56:09.558-07:002017-08-12T09:56:09.558-07:00"The problem is that some people take these f..."The problem is that some people take these facts, draw unjustified conclusions about causality, and then try to use those to justify discrimination."<br /><br />This is the price I referred to. It's sort of a corollary to the bullshit asymmetry principle. Until we resolve how to keep the discussion we should be having from resulting in those unjustified conclusions and the chain ofO.https://www.blogger.com/profile/12852590480441556047noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-16839332508228313122017-08-12T08:23:45.808-07:002017-08-12T08:23:45.808-07:00> "Native Americans are prone to alcoholis...> "Native Americans are prone to alcoholism."<br /><br />Well, that's a fact.<br /><br />https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_and_Native_Americans<br /><br />Your other two examples are less clear cut. You didn't finish your "Jews are..." so I'll do it for you:<br /><br />"Jews are disproportionately likely to win Nobel prizes."<br /><br />That, too,Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-85742407420424154402017-08-12T06:02:03.179-07:002017-08-12T06:02:03.179-07:00Solid points. The problem with advancing the theor...Solid points. The problem with advancing the theory because it might be true is that it immediately affects those it might be true about. Scientific discourse is slow and methodical. The layperson discussion and its "innuendo effect" in less rigorous circles moves more quickly, and the amount of effort required to dislodge beliefs that could have been true but have no empirical proof isO.https://www.blogger.com/profile/12852590480441556047noreply@blogger.com