tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post6017957350873766508..comments2024-03-18T17:28:44.693-07:00Comments on Rondam Ramblings: An open letter to Jack PhillipsRonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-38421445746090307092018-05-03T20:01:25.396-07:002018-05-03T20:01:25.396-07:00@Ron:
Would you mind explaining to me what merit y...@Ron:<br /><i>Would you mind explaining to me what merit you found here?</i><br /><br />I won't know until I've read the book. The fact that I have added it to my reading list does not mean that I will necessarily agree with what it says. It just means that the quote Luke gave, plus reading the Wikipedia page about the book, made me curious enough to want to read it.<br /><br /><i>BecausePeter Donishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09122769947782402203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-16745448222943680052018-05-03T10:01:30.484-07:002018-05-03T10:01:30.484-07:00@Ron:
> Would you mind explaining to me what m...@Ron:<br /><br />> Would you mind explaining to me what merit you found here? Because it looks like <b>a steaming heap of obfuscated BS</b> to me.<br /><br />The bold is, by the way, often how I interpret you viewing <i>me</i>. Out of a person's heart, the mouth speaks. Both of our mouths.<br /><br />> Asking whether you are 100% at fault is not a legitimate question (the answer is Lukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18395549142176242491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-28917753061664587082018-05-03T08:37:51.532-07:002018-05-03T08:37:51.532-07:00@Peter:
> You seem to have a talent for findin...@Peter:<br /><br />> You seem to have a talent for finding items that I end up having to add to my reading list. :-)<br /><br />Would you mind explaining to me what merit you found here? Because it looks like a steaming heap of obfuscated BS to me.<br /><br />@Luke:<br /><br />> "you try to shirk responsibility when you are misunderstood" — Is this true?<br /><br />Yes. For Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-6404531658053557222018-05-03T06:04:25.566-07:002018-05-03T06:04:25.566-07:00@Peter:
> You seem to have a talent for findin...@Peter:<br /><br />> You seem to have a talent for finding items that I end up having to add to my reading list. :-)<br /><br />May the benefit outweigh the curse. :-p<br /><br />> The "modern" Enlightenment solution is certainly open to criticism on various grounds, but one also has to recognize that it has produced tremendous benefits: to name just one, it built the medium in Lukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18395549142176242491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-57797253803787924582018-05-02T20:49:44.952-07:002018-05-02T20:49:44.952-07:00@Luke:
I just read the following to a lawyer frien...@Luke:<br /><i>I just read the following to a lawyer friend of mine</i><br /><br /><i>Another analysis is Charles Taylor's 1989 Explanation and Practical Reason.</i><br /><br />You seem to have a talent for finding items that I end up having to add to my reading list. :-)<br /><br /><i>I posit that you cannot legislate morality</i><br /><br />I agree. But taking Taylor's strategy II, Peter Donishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09122769947782402203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-10629343594712746352018-05-02T20:35:17.591-07:002018-05-02T20:35:17.591-07:00@Ron:
drawing the line at medical necessity is non...@Ron:<br /><i>drawing the line at medical necessity is nonetheless extremely dangerous. It was not that long ago that people fought for the right to decline to serve black people at restaurants.</i><br /><br />To be clear, I was only referring to drawing the line as far as when the law is brought in and people sue each other and it goes to the Supreme Court. If nothing else, I think the law has Peter Donishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09122769947782402203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-61896059275813156682018-05-02T20:07:01.547-07:002018-05-02T20:07:01.547-07:00"you try to shirk responsibility when you are..."you try to shirk responsibility when you are misunderstood" — Is this <i>true</i>? Does the empirical evidence—not human memory!—support it?Lukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18395549142176242491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-11272142496120123742018-05-02T19:59:43.072-07:002018-05-02T19:59:43.072-07:00@Luke:
> Are you asking me to accept 100% faul...@Luke:<br /><br />> Are you asking me to accept 100% fault?<br /><br />You have heard of Ron's First Law, yes? "All extreme positions are wrong." Do you really think that someone who would coin that aphorism would ever claim that anyone is 100% at fault about anything?<br /><br />The fact that you would even ask this indicates that you have missed the point so badly that I am Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-14694059603134595832018-05-02T15:29:08.082-07:002018-05-02T15:29:08.082-07:00> Ron: Oh, you wanted a less dismissive answer?...> <a href="http://blog.rongarret.info/2018/04/an-open-letter-to-jack-phillips.html?showComment=1525188451387#c6687294005035773862" rel="nofollow">Ron</a>: Oh, you wanted a less dismissive answer? Sorry, you won't get one, at least not from me. Fish's article advances a classic argument from ignorance: "I (and my peer group) cannot see how X could be possible, therefore X cannot beLukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18395549142176242491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-4187119867146495882018-05-02T09:56:01.991-07:002018-05-02T09:56:01.991-07:00@Luke:
> Do you think I meant it to work on yo...@Luke:<br /><br />> Do you think I meant it to work on you?<br /><br />Yes.<br /><br />"I simply beat atheists who claim to respect the evidence at their own game"<br /><br />I am an atheist who claims to respect the evidence, so it's quite a reasonable inference, in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, to read this as:<br /><br />"I simply beat atheists who claim toRonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-52217626638774591232018-05-02T09:38:54.630-07:002018-05-02T09:38:54.630-07:00@Ron:
> Well, that won't work on me …
Do ...@Ron:<br /><br />> Well, that won't work on me …<br /><br />Do you think I <i>meant</i> it to work on you?<br /><br />> You don't listen.<br /><br />At least one of us is not listening to the other. I am generally reticent to accept 100% fault in situations like this. Are you asking me to accept 100% fault?Lukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18395549142176242491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-62970302856501302862018-05-02T09:34:56.061-07:002018-05-02T09:34:56.061-07:00@Luke:
> if there is no injured party, the law...@Luke:<br /><br />> if there is no injured party, the law cannot even be discussed in courts<br /><br />That is generally true.<br /><br />https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standing_(law)<br /><br />> See the NYT op-ed A Man of Faith, a Leader in Science?<br /><br />Even better, see Sam Harris's original piece:<br /><br />https://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/27/opinion/27harris.html<br /><br />Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-74636482915235796552018-05-02T08:41:35.175-07:002018-05-02T08:41:35.175-07:00@Peter:
> I do think it makes a difference wh...@Peter:<br /><br />> I do think it makes a difference what kind of profession you're in. Wedding cakes are not the same as lifesaving services<br /><br />That's true. I chose the transfusion example not because you can die without one, but because there really are people who object to them on religious grounds, so this is not a hypothetical. (Christian Scientists are even more Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-47267187057706195192018-05-02T06:30:41.225-07:002018-05-02T06:30:41.225-07:00@Ron: (2/2)
> There are certain things that I ...@Ron: (2/2)<br /><br />> There are certain things that I expect people who wish to engage in civil discourse to take for granted. Among these are that atheism is not a pre-requisite for doing science, humans ought not to be treated as property, and no one should be discriminated against in the public sphere without a damn good reason.<br />> <br />> If you don't believe these things Lukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18395549142176242491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-70061806716578992732018-05-02T06:30:27.283-07:002018-05-02T06:30:27.283-07:00@Ron: (1/2)
> > > > I don't see v...@Ron: (1/2)<br /><br />> > > > I don't see very many Buddhists trying to use a religious-freedom argument to turn people into second-class citizens. When they do, you can ask me again.<br /><br />> > > Ahh, a pragmatic/minimum adoption restriction. Ok then: Is Marxism a religion?<br /><br />> > Is Marxism a religion?<br /><br />> Is anyone asserting their right Lukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18395549142176242491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-13932637326331509422018-05-02T06:06:58.423-07:002018-05-02T06:06:58.423-07:00@Peter:
> But I'm also uneasy about our so...@Peter:<br /><br />> But I'm also uneasy about our society's tendency to view situations as "essentially the same" without taking notice of highly significant differences between them.<br /><br />I just read the following to a lawyer friend of mine:<br /><br />>> This is another book about the dissolution of the West. I attempt two things not commonly found in the Lukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18395549142176242491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-39908877111989440462018-05-01T23:31:03.312-07:002018-05-01T23:31:03.312-07:00in a professional setting, sometimes you have to c...<i>in a professional setting, sometimes you have to check your personal beliefs at the door</i><br /><br />I agree with this, but I do think it makes a difference what kind of profession you're in. Wedding cakes are not the same as lifesaving services, so the latter professionals (doctors), for example, should be held to a higher standard of having to check their personal beliefs at the door Peter Donishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09122769947782402203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-71725955065618985732018-05-01T14:00:33.778-07:002018-05-01T14:00:33.778-07:00> Is Marxism a religion?
Is anyone asserting t...> Is Marxism a religion?<br /><br />Is anyone asserting their right under their first-amendment freedom of religion to discriminate against people in the name of Marxism?<br /><br />> Your response is a classic answer from taken-for-grantedness<br /><br />Do you think that the question of whether or not Christians can be scientists should actually be open for debate? What about whether Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-52154246959821106882018-05-01T08:58:01.764-07:002018-05-01T08:58:01.764-07:00@Ron: (2/2)
> Oh, you wanted a less dismissive...@Ron: (2/2)<br /><br />> Oh, you wanted a less dismissive answer? Sorry, you won't get one, at least not from me. Fish's article advances a classic argument from ignorance: "I (and my peer group) cannot see how X could be possible, therefore X cannot be possible." It is the same form of argument advanced by young-earth creationists, lunar-landing conspiracy theorists, and Lukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18395549142176242491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-55625724237985229312018-05-01T08:57:04.227-07:002018-05-01T08:57:04.227-07:00@Ron: (1/2)
> I don't see very many Buddhi...@Ron: (1/2)<br /><br />> I don't see very many Buddhists trying to use a religious-freedom argument to turn people into second-class citizens. When they do, you can ask me again.<br /><br />Ahh, a pragmatic/minimum adoption restriction. Ok then: Is Marxism a religion?Lukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18395549142176242491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-66872940050357738622018-05-01T08:27:31.387-07:002018-05-01T08:27:31.387-07:00> What about those forms of Buddhism which do n...> What about those forms of Buddhism which do not have a deity?<br /><br />I don't see very many Buddhists trying to use a religious-freedom argument to turn people into second-class citizens. When they do, you can ask me again.<br /><br />> So are there 'secular reasons' for anything? <br /><br />Yes. (And, BTW, the earth is round too.)<br /><br />Oh, you wanted a less Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-70815740963317913552018-05-01T06:01:02.617-07:002018-05-01T06:01:02.617-07:00> How you choose to communicate is up to you. B...> How you choose to communicate is up to you. But. at the risk of stating what should be painfully obvious, language doesn't really fulfill its intended purpose if everyone starts using their own private definitions for words.<br /><br />My bad, the first definition at <a href="http://www.dictionary.com/browse/resource" rel="nofollow">dictionary.com <b>resource</b></a> is ambiguous and theLukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18395549142176242491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-73271651864611041622018-04-30T23:03:08.668-07:002018-04-30T23:03:08.668-07:00> do you really want me to pick a different wor...> do you really want me to pick a different word for the bold<br /><br />How you choose to communicate is up to you. But. at the risk of stating what should be painfully obvious, language doesn't really fulfill its intended purpose if everyone starts using their own private definitions for words.<br /><br />> I doubt you can define 'religious doctrine' in a non-question-beggingRonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-56484874318902538112018-04-30T14:28:27.366-07:002018-04-30T14:28:27.366-07:00> > People are not "resources"
&g...> > People are not "resources"<br /><br />> Of course they are.<br />> <br />> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_resources<br /><br />Ok, do you really want me to pick a different word for the bold:<br /><br />> <a href="http://blog.rongarret.info/2018/04/an-open-letter-to-jack-phillips.html?showComment=1525092884361#c6610907847990910157" rel="nofollow">Luke</a>: To Lukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18395549142176242491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-14505800192318521792018-04-30T12:54:46.211-07:002018-04-30T12:54:46.211-07:00> People are not "resources"
Of cour...> People are not "resources"<br /><br />Of course they are.<br /><br />https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_resources<br /><br />> > > I do believe that a Christian doctor should be allowed to (i) refuse to perform euthanasia;<br /><br />> > Really? On what grounds?<br /><br />> The Hippocratic Oath.<br /><br />The Hippocratic oath is not a religious doctrine, and itRonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.com