tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post2027708373750702452..comments2024-03-18T17:28:44.693-07:00Comments on Rondam Ramblings: Why CSS should not be used for layoutRonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comBlogger254125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-8626433174858743652017-08-06T10:38:42.544-07:002017-08-06T10:38:42.544-07:00Sumit Gupta,
If you like CSS flex layout wait unt...Sumit Gupta,<br /><br />If you like CSS <b>flex</b> layout wait until CSS <b>Grid</b> layout becomes a recommendation!<br /><br /><a rel="nofollow">https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/CSS_Grid_Layout</a>Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18232461485051269480noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-42181977372153165222017-08-06T06:39:31.701-07:002017-08-06T06:39:31.701-07:00I recall when I use Table for layout and been a HT...I recall when I use Table for layout and been a HTML/CSS expert, but this new CSS make me look like novice. <br /><br />Having said that, I don't like the fact that to get layout in CSS we have to make multiple DIV or container, but with Table we have one. However with Flex been there it is different world now, If you learn and expertise in Flex layout is much easier. <br /><br />On other Sumit Guptahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17644563181136050798noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-4993316058474657992013-02-09T22:39:20.360-08:002013-02-09T22:39:20.360-08:00"CSS is not a programming language"
The..."CSS is not a programming language"<br /><br />The funny thing is that it doesn't claim to be.<br /><br />"One googles, finds little snippets, and tries them out (and a lot of them do not work)."<br /><br />That's not how I learned it.<br /><br />"As with any crap piece of junk software it has no authoritative documentation... When it comes to laying out a page inChristianZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10926523379961771939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-2620819257319526882013-02-02T04:37:24.810-08:002013-02-02T04:37:24.810-08:00The idea of CSS is great. However the implementati...The idea of CSS is great. However the implementation is 1,000% crap. No doubt about it. CSS is not a programming language as there are more exceptions (mostly undocumented) than there are rules. As with any crap piece of junk software it has no authoritative documentation. One googles, finds little snippets, and tries them out (and a lot of them do not work).<br /><br />When it comes to laying Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-5676067263054955322012-12-07T20:01:33.108-08:002012-12-07T20:01:33.108-08:00I have been building web sites since 1995 and I ca...I have been building web sites since 1995 and I can tell you, though few pros - self included - still use tables as the backbone of a layout, they will still validate and perform at speed if you don't overdo them - even on mobiles it seems.<br /><br />If you do use tables as the backbone, learn to fashion one table into the whole page layout - easy to do in Dreamweaver.<br /><br />Use Michael Wallshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13068495113336701807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-13440559012645402122012-10-26T10:41:17.611-07:002012-10-26T10:41:17.611-07:00It's right for 2009. But we live in 2012, so w...It's right for 2009. But we live in 2012, so with CSS3 and HTML5 and the dieing oft IE6/7, CSS is ready for layout (we can use frameworks like bootstrap, we can use display: table).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-71977017728489553982010-06-16T16:40:44.640-07:002010-06-16T16:40:44.640-07:00You are welcome to start this topic anew. I have 1...You are welcome to start this topic anew. I have 15 years in web design and know the topic is not set in stone.<br /><br /><br />http://search-engine-upgrade.com/rants/Michael Wallshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13068495113336701807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-29878882280217748492010-03-30T21:28:51.690-07:002010-03-30T21:28:51.690-07:00YES YES YES !!! You are so dargn right ! Anyone w...<b> YES YES YES !!! You are so dargn right ! </b> Anyone who disagree with this articles are real amateurs. Trust me , i consider myself a web <b> Guru </b> (now own an I.T company with few employees). I've hand coded all my sites from scratch ( html/css, js, php and sql ) I know all about html/css, rendering engines and how they work. CSS is great for lots of thing, but NOT Layout. You'Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04484007098014372771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-31639038792158648982010-03-04T09:02:24.716-08:002010-03-04T09:02:24.716-08:00I just recently found this and I have to say it ma...I just recently found this and I have to say it makes a lot of sense. When I started learning basic html the advanced programmers made fun of me for using tables the whole time. But it was so much easier to get things in place and working properly. This will show them. Great article.Nuno Laranjahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03041630070794048365noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-1421302242895557492009-08-01T17:53:13.417-07:002009-08-01T17:53:13.417-07:00Ron - you're right. I'm newer here so it t...<b>Ron</b> - you're right. I'm newer here so it took me a while to see the syndrome.<br /><br />It's sounds like whining instead of discource - BYE!Michael Wallshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13068495113336701807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-24040893762822887122009-08-01T16:00:59.669-07:002009-08-01T16:00:59.669-07:00I just posted a new article about this in an attem...I just posted <a href="http://rondam.blogspot.com/2009/08/html-is-object-code.html" rel="nofollow">a new article</a> about this in an attempt to lead the discussion in a different direction. Please check it out. Also, if you comment on the new post you won't have to wait for me to approve your comments. I only have moderation active for articles older than 30 days (mainly to prevent spam).Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-86502674570365358102009-08-01T15:29:05.004-07:002009-08-01T15:29:05.004-07:00PS - we won't actually be able to use CSS tabl...<b>PS</b> - we won't actually be able to <b><i>use</i></b> CSS tables for years to come. Almost nobody has the browser to support it.<br /><br />That means SOMEDAY CSS wil be better for layout - but not yet.Michael Wallshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13068495113336701807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-11974217692902414742009-08-01T15:24:29.962-07:002009-08-01T15:24:29.962-07:00"Without knowing it YOU became a self-appoint...<b>"Without knowing it YOU became a self-appointed body by making up rules that other people don't care so much about and saying they have to follow them. That's what I was referring to."</b><br /><br />Wow, are you ever off base!! A challenge is not a rule - duh! And absolutely nobody HAS to follow anything. I'm just offering you a opportunity to beat my pants off. You Michael Wallshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13068495113336701807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-64073672453169641952009-08-01T15:21:06.705-07:002009-08-01T15:21:06.705-07:00@ChristianZ it's not a serious challenge. Is i...@ChristianZ it's not a serious challenge. Is it, go on have a go. Or are the odds stacked against solving via CSS.<br /><br />With my extremely limited experience of using CSS I am aware, perhaps mistakingly, that it might take a lot longer to use CSS for layout than tables but for maintenance CSS will considerably shorten alteration time when the customer wants (inevitably) changes.ggeoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02017569012623523830noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-21428150360366813842009-08-01T13:36:26.244-07:002009-08-01T13:36:26.244-07:00"Or are we saying that I should abide by the ..."Or are we saying that I should abide by the rules of some self-appointed body?"<br />(the W3C is self appointed!)"<br /><br />Wow, you <b>totally</b> misunderstood why I brought up the whole "self-appointed body" thing. I brought it up because of people like you and Ron who have been saying, "We don't care if the W3C says to not use tables for layout. They are aChristianZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10926523379961771939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-3654555144940202372009-08-01T13:09:58.975-07:002009-08-01T13:09:58.975-07:00"From the W3C:
Tables should not be used pure...<b>"From the W3C:<br />Tables should not be used purely as a means to layout document content.”<br /><br /><br />"Or are we saying that I should abide by the rules of some self-appointed body?"<br /></b>(the W3C is self appointed!)<br /><br />Two quotes from the same guy - ChristianZMichael Wallshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13068495113336701807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-65919358234778739852009-07-31T15:29:27.348-07:002009-07-31T15:29:27.348-07:00No Body - self appointed or Not
Just a Challenge!...<b>No Body - self appointed or Not</b><br /><br />Just a Challenge! You're free to turn it down - I'm not the W3C. If CSS is at least equal, it can do anything tables can do. If it is better, it can do more.<br /><br />Bear in mind, I am quite proficient in CSS layout. If I were not, I wouldn't be so foolhardy as to put my own feet to the fire.Michael Wallshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13068495113336701807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-46175875118507353752009-07-31T14:55:58.731-07:002009-07-31T14:55:58.731-07:00"It must look exactly the same in Firefox and..."It must look exactly the same in Firefox and IE7."<br /><br />I've never put a big premium on making a page look exactly the same on every device. If it looks perfectly good on one and perfectly good on another while still having minor differences then I don't get worked up over it.<br /><br />Or are we saying that I should abide by the rules of some self-appointed body?<br /><ChristianZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10926523379961771939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-80783376512792667302009-07-31T14:22:32.002-07:002009-07-31T14:22:32.002-07:00Ron - add this to the challenge
Requirements - it...Ron - add this to the challenge<br /><br /><b>Requirements</b> - it must look exactly the same in Firefox and IE7 and use no scriptsMichael Wallshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13068495113336701807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-39692115868360409212009-07-31T14:19:24.404-07:002009-07-31T14:19:24.404-07:00Put up or shut up!
I propose a duel. Ron (third p...<b>Put up or shut up!</b><br /><br />I propose a duel. Ron (third party) comes up with an <i>extremely</i> non-standard layout spec - one not in use anywhere. Then your bravest knight will do it in CSS and I will do it in tables with CSS styles.<br /><br />I will do it in an hour or two and my money says the challenger will not be able to do it at all!Michael Wallshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13068495113336701807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-74042219902500467852009-07-31T14:07:39.938-07:002009-07-31T14:07:39.938-07:00"All you've done is proclaim, without any..."All you've done is proclaim, without any actual support, that it's the right thing to do."<br /><br />From the W3C:<br /><br />“Tables should <b>not</b> be used purely as a means to layout document content.”<br /><br />http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/tables.html<br /><br /><br />"Just because it may be *possible* to achieve good results with sufficient diligence and ChristianZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10926523379961771939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-52753930334218219912009-07-31T13:51:57.877-07:002009-07-31T13:51:57.877-07:00> But just because YOU can't achieve "...> But just because YOU can't achieve "more reliable results for less effort" with CSS over tables doesn't mean nobody can.<br /><br />I never said otherwise. But the mere fact that it's a rare and difficult-to-acquire skill is in and of itself a disadvantage from my perspective an an employer. And you have not demonstrated any actual advantages to using CSS for layout.Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-31281007310784859142009-07-31T13:16:26.105-07:002009-07-31T13:16:26.105-07:00"All else being equal, more reliable results ..."All else being equal, more reliable results for less effort is in my book intrinsically better than less reliable results for more effort no matter what any self-appointed standards body might have to say about it."<br /><br />Agreed wholeheartedly. But just because YOU can't achieve "more reliable results for less effort" with CSS over tables doesn't mean nobody can.ChristianZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10926523379961771939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-87666345398060620172009-07-31T12:58:35.954-07:002009-07-31T12:58:35.954-07:00> It's about levels of knowledge, not that ...> It's about levels of knowledge, not that tables are intrinsically better.<br /><br />These are not unrelated matters. The fact that tables can be used to produce reliable results without a lot of arcane knowledge *makes* them intrinsically better. All else being equal, more reliable results for less effort is in my book intrinsically better than less reliable results for more effort noRonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11752242624438232184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5592542.post-5218448662211200432009-07-31T12:49:27.476-07:002009-07-31T12:49:27.476-07:00>"If you need to a really quick job for a ...>"If you need to a really quick job for a demanding client then your best bet is to screw the W3C and use tables." <br /><br />-----------------------------------<br /><br />Always extremes! There are many things poo pooed by the CSS extremists that are W3C compliant. Tables are W3C compliant.<br /><br />And yes - the bottom line is very important to clients.<br /><br />I have found Michael Wallshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13068495113336701807noreply@blogger.com